An Interesting Live Setup Idea

[Verminator25]

Imagine this:

It’s the early 80’s. You’re the guitarist in the band (fill in the blank). You walk out on stage and you’ve got two Marshall full stacks behind you— one has you’re guitar direct into it, and the other is at a slight delay, very short, like a couple milliseconds.

Anyway I had this idea because a friend gave me a few guitar pedals, one of which was the Electro Harmonix Analogizer. Possibly the most useless pedal in the world. It’s supposed to make a digital rig sound more “analog” which it kind of fails at by putting anywhere from 0-60 milliseconds of delay on your guitar signal. It’s been sitting in my room for a long while but I though of this idea after researching how chorus works.

What do you guys think of this idea for a live rig? It wouldn’t be true chorus because the delay time isn’t being modulated, but the slight fixed delay might add a sort of 3D effect to the guitar sound, wouldn’t it? Seems like an 80’s type of vibe would ensue.

What say you?

 

[Crikey]

I've run similar setup with AB box and still run a Marshall and a Vox or Budda for a clean and dirty effect at the same time or dry/wet.

 

[mickeydg5]

The Analogizer is supposed to give about 4 to 65ms of delay. Somewhere in the there, like 20 -65, will do it. Above 40 gets into slapback.

A possible problem is if the Analogizer puts your two stacks out of phase it will not sound good anyway.

 

[JBA]

A possible problem is if the Analogizer puts your two stacks out of phase it will not sound good anyway.

Yep, this is exactly why I would never do this.

 

[mickeydg5]

Yep, this is exactly why I would never do this.

Doing it is fine as long as you maker sure the gear used keeps the two paths in phase.

If anyone cannot cannot get a hold of diagram or schematic or cannot decipher it then let your ears do the work. Again if it sounds off or lacking then it is wrong.

NOTE! It sure would be great if manufacturers would include phase information at their products output in their specifications.

 

[JBA]

Doing it is fine as long as you maker sure the gear used keeps the two paths in phase.

If anyone cannot cannot get a hold of diagram or schematic or cannot decipher it then let your ears do the work. Again if it sounds off or lacking then it is wrong.

NOTE! It sure would be great if manufacturers would include phase information at their products output in their specifications.

It won't put the whole stack out of phase, it will cancel certain frequencies from a fundamental and its octaves up that will be determined by the delay time, the cancelation will also have a rotational pattern due to the side by side position of the cab. Why aim for more power and good coverage (and good sound in one spot) just to randomly incert destructive cancelation. Talk to a professional sound tech if you need a better explanation or second opinion on why this is not a good practice. Multiple speakers and multiple cabs already have enough pattern interference going on, all I'm saying is why would you willingly and randomly want to add more. If you crank up the time and simulate more of a short delay it might be nice at home or in your bedroom but this is exactly what you want to avoid live in most venues that are all ready fighting these issues.

 

[Verminator25]

Ok, so then wouldn’t a wet/dry stereo chorus setup do this also? Because the wet signal would be creating the delay and modulating the delay time which in effect modulates the pitch.

 

[JBA]

Ok, so then wouldn’t a wet/dry stereo chorus setup do this also? Because the wet signal would be creating the delay and modulating the delay time which in effect modulates the pitch.

Absolutely it would but it is sweeping to give you a chorus effect and then the stereo rig gives you a more pronounced effect using this phasing delta which scews with your brain's positional image. It's like mixing cabs and/or speakers, anyone who understand exactly was is going on avoids it and most peaple that experiment with it (and are really paying attention to its effect) come out realizing that you might get a better sound in one spot but will certainly have more issues everywhere else. An open back "airy" cab with a nice reverb and a bit of carefully adjusted delay sounds awsome in my room but use very little of that shit live if you want to sound better or care what the audience hears IMO.

 

[Verminator25]

Ok, makes sense. It would probably make a cool studio effect but not so much live.

It's like mixing cabs and/or speakers, anyone who understand exactly was is going on avoids it and most peaple that experiment with it (and are really paying attention to its effect) come out realizing that you might get a better sound in one spot but will certainly have more issues everywhere else.

And you’re absolutely right about mixing speakers IMO I’ve tried it and it just sounds better with 1 type of speaker.

 

[mickeydg5]

My rack rig has 19 speakers. There are six different types of speakers in 5 types of cabinets. It sounds great.

Mixing speakers is great with the right combination.

I do not need a professional sound technician. I can do it just fine, as good or better than any other.

@JBA
My concern about phase issue and cancellation of an effect or amplifier was regarding amplification stage tube or chip phase inversion. The phase inversions are 180 degrees.
Is that what you were refering to in post #6?

 

[JBA]

My rack rig has 19 speakers. There are six different types of speakers in 5 types of cabinets. It sounds great.

Mixing speakers is great with the right combination.

I do not need a professional sound technician. I can do it just fine, as good or better than any other.

@JBA
My concern about phase issue and cancellation of an effect or amplifier was regarding amplification stage tube or chip phase inversion. The phase inversions are 180 degrees.
Is that what you were refering to in post #6?

As far as mixing everything and not wanting to pick an experts brain is up to you and I'm definitely not knocking it because ignorance is bliss.. definitely has its up side (I really mean this with no disrespect). With my background in telecommunication and audio, specifically antenna design and speaker design I find it hard to audibly ingnore the theory of what I have come to understand over the years. This stuff can help me achieve what I want and also cause some disapointement with some things that I wish I could unlearn. It just makes some shit stand out like a sore thumb... Now I can't unhear it lol!

I totally agree with you on the 180 inversion, two amps can be out of phase by design (easily correctable) but sometimes the phasing between channels in an amp invert which would be a problem when switching channels in a stereo rig with dissimilar amps: This can be a little more painfully corrected. I've seen this issue in a few pedals too! My phasing comment was geared specifically to spatial/time based cancelation and then I touched lightly on the destructive cancellation pattern inherent in multi driver arrays and dissimilar driver combinations. I try not to explain this stuff unless asked because of its sleeping pill effect ;-)

Cheers!

 

[mickeydg5]

As far as mixing everything and not wanting to pick an experts brain is up to you and I'm definitely not knocking it because ignorance is bliss.. definitely has its up side (I really mean this with no disrespect). With my background in telecommunication and audio, specifically antenna design and speaker design I find it hard to audibly ingnore the theory of what I have come to understand over the years. This stuff can help me achieve what I want and also cause some disapointement with some things that I wish I could unlearn. It just makes some shit stand out like a sore thumb... Now I can't unhear it lol!

I totally agree with you on the 180 inversion, two amps can be out of phase by design (easily correctable) but sometimes the phasing between channels in an amp invert which would be a problem when switching channels in a stereo rig with dissimilar amps: This can be a little more painfully corrected. I've seen this issue in a few pedals too! My phasing comment was geared specifically to spatial/time based cancelation and then I touched lightly on the destructive cancellation pattern inherent in multi driver arrays and dissimilar driver combinations. I try not to explain this stuff unless asked because of its sleeping pill effect ;-)

Cheers!

No. I am not ignorant nor incapable, am professional in everything I do, do understand what you have mentionted and would trust my own brain and senses before yours or any other so called expert.
I really mean this with no disrespect to you or the other experts.
Thank you for the concern and information.

 

[JBA]

23,600 posts indicates to me you that you enjoy this banter and will have the last word. Post one more, I won't reply and it will be done.

 

[Mitchell Pearrow]

Ok, makes sense. It would probably make a cool studio effect but not so much live.




And you’re absolutely right about mixing speakers IMO I’ve tried it and it just sounds better with 1 type of speaker.

To the forum

 

[Verminator25]

To the forum

Haha thanks.

Well you know, I was searching for the longest time for a speaker to complement my greenback, and it finally dawned on me that maybe another greenback would be best

 

[mickeydg5]

You know I like a good argument but at the same time I do like to think I give people good information to help situations and to think about.

 

[mickeydg5]

Post #13:
23,600 posts indicates to me you that you enjoy this banter and will have the last word. Post one more, I won't reply and it will be done.

@Mitchell Pearrow
What exactly did you "Like" about this post?

 

[Mitchell Pearrow]

Post #13:
23,600 posts indicates to me you that you enjoy this banter and will have the last word. Post one more, I won't reply and it will be done.

@Mitchell Pearrow
What exactly did you "Like" about this post?

Seemed to me that the argument was over, plain and simple, instead of 8 more posts that would not actually accomplish anything!
And it was so I liked it, shows that both of you indeed have class.
Cheers

 

[mickeydg5]

Seemed to me that the argument was over, plain and simple, instead of 8 more posts that would not actually accomplish anything!

But you need to read more into the situation. It is a soap opera. It is the the Hatfields and the McCoys.
Embrace the drama, a metonym for any bitterly feuding rival parties.

Or maybe it is just a Marshall forum conversation with back and forth banter.

 

[Mitchell Pearrow]

But you need to read more into the situation. It is a soap opera. It is the the Hatfields and the McCoys.
Embrace the drama, a metonym for any bitterly feuding rival parties.

Or maybe it is just a Marshall forum conversation with back and forth banter.

You asked brother and I answered.
I have no dog in this fight, just doing some reading as I always do here, and if my actions are offending, I apologize to the parties involved!!
Thanks