Attenuator Thread

[LoudStroud]

I’ve tried, and used so many attenuators over the years all the way back to the original Altair, the very first. Used a Hot Plate for years when it was the only one readily available back in the 90s. Then later, the Ultimate Attenuator was the best thing I found at the time.

More often than not, I’ve had issues with attenuators, either sucking down the tone too much when setting at lower
volumes or not being able to reproduce the clean tone without artifacts, fuzzy crackling noises laying on top of the signal. Those kind of sounds are usually hidden within an overdriven tone, but very apparent when running a 100 W Marshall or Hiwatt super clean.

I could give you the list of all of those I don’t like, but instead will stick with just the ones I do like and use. Currently down to these two...

Fryette Power Station - as someone else mentioned, it is a reamp type, but I’ve found it does the best job retaining the tone, punch and dynamic feel of my big amps, especially for clean tones. Not cheap but well worth it, especially when using with vintage amps, non-master Marshall’s and such.

Harley Benton P100 - all of $189 when it first came out, this one does incredibly well. Even used it on a recording session when I first bought it last year. I mainly use with my SV20 combo to play at bedroom volume.

 

[Silverdome]

I have a PPIV master volume that does the trick for me. My experience has been we all need to figure out a way to cut the power and no matter which approach you chose there's going to be some purist out there telling you about the aspects of your tone that you are going to lose.

It's all personal and as long as you can rock then imo it is working.

 

[Digby68]

I have the Rockcrusher and the Fryette PS-100 and I use them live with my 1959HW head. I play lead in an AC/DC tribute band so I have the head volume on 7 or 8 all the time. The PS-100 allows for a variable volume (as well as the other benefits such as a fx loop which I don't use) which is great for different sized venues. The tone is good. There is some hum from the transformer in the fryette but no worse than the amp head. The main downside with the Fryette is the weight of the thing and the risk.of damaging the valves during transport.
The Rockcrusher is also great. It is very light and is a passive unit. The downsides to the Rockcrusher are the tone sounds slightly muted and the volume reduction is stepwise and not variable.
I've also got the SV20H which I never need to attenuate live or at rehearsals as its only 20w.

 

[AustinPaul]

Mmmm. I have a couple of Marshall dsl 402s and have had many amps. The best way to keep down the level is to use a really good clean channel and use an overdrive pedal in the front end. Man it solves all the issues and sounds miles better than any expensive attenuators. The dsl 40 has an amazing clean channel.

LOL!

 

[Rachael]

Hi All!

First up, to keep things above board just going to come clean and say I make attenuators under the Audiostorm brand. I'm not writing this post as a sales pitch in any way, and I'm also not here to criticise the competition (so please don't ask me for 'what is best'), but what I DO want to offer are technical answers to any questions. I've been making attenuators for over a decade, I've pulled apart many competing units, I love electronics, I love guitar, I've dealt with thousands of enquiries, and I truly love what I do and believe it's everyone's right to access the gritty details of how we make these things and why we make the choices we do.

So I'll start with a few general things I have found to be true and I hope they are useful:

No. 1 : Every attenuator has its own sound. For better or worse they're doing 99% of the job of the speaker and so you get this super interesting thing where if the attenuator you buy just happens to sound like your favourite speaker it gets called 'transparent'. But if it doesn't then it gets called either 'thin' or 'muffled'. And so this is why you get a lot of disagreements on tone. One person's 'fat' is another person's 'muddy' basically. So you have to try a few.

No. 2 : is that if you don't really want an attenuator, you aren't ever going to like it. If you just plain like the sound of a loud amp and you are getting an attenuator because your bandmates told you to, or because your neighbours complain, then that's like asking for a Strat and being given an LP. Sure it does the job, but it's not what you want and you won't find tonal happiness. Honestly, I've had some lovely conversations with players who've had dozens of attenuators and returned mine and it's a really common theme. If you buy an attenuator to unlock tone you'll love it, if you buy it to just 'be quieter' you'll hate it.

No.3 : Resistive attenuators are more tonally complex than everyone thinks. The transformer in your amp provides 70% of the reactive response and using a resistive attenuator tightens that up but doesn't kill it dead. But not every resistor is created equal. Just think how much difference there is between one cable and another? But they're just a bit of copper right? Same thing with resistors! Their construction, the temperature they run at, the materials used to make them, these things all have an audible effect.

Anyway, I have 100's of things I could add but I'll just leave this here and my offer is open to do my best to answer technical queries in general (Although I can't promise -quick- replies) Peace and love.

 

[JohnH]

Hi @Rachael , welcome to the MF and it is much appreciated that you have posted here!

 

[gkelm]

I’ve owned Scholz, THD, Weber, Dr. Z, Alex, and re-amping units like Ultimate and Fryette (maybe others I can’t recall).

I like best the Aracom PRX150 DAG, for tone and flexibility (but not so much form factor).

Use it with my ‘69 Marshall 50w plexi panel set to verge of break up, adjust to room volume, and pedal away. Makes the blackbacks in the ‘78 4x12 happy.

 

[leofender55]

I have two, a THD Hotplate, the purple 8 ohm, and a Marshall PowerBrake. I haven't used either since I retired from playing live. As I recall, the THD worked pretty well and I had to use the tone knobs on my Les Paul to adjust. The PowerBrake worked well on my Marshall Bluesbreaker reissue.

 

[OriginOfTheSpecies]

I own a Two Notes Captor and a couple of unsung ones - an AMT PE-15 and a Plug and Play Amplification Power Attenuator 50 (received just this morning).

I use them for silent recording and to get crunch out of my Origin 20 at non-neighbour pissing off levels (which even the 0.5 watt mode is capable of).

Captor is a reactive load, 100 watt handling with a fixed -20db cut for the attenuator function. Fixed amp/speaker resistance setting (mine is 16 ohm).
The Captor colours the tone a fair amount, to the point I wasn't really satisfied with it when using T-75's. Now I've added a Greenback it seems to match better. I've read the curve matches V30's.
It retains decent dynamic "feel".

AMT PE-15 is another reactive load. I've heard it described as a superior "reactive resonance" load, but I have no idea what that means. Power rating of only 15w and only available in 8 ohm.
To my ears and with my gear, this one is slightly better than the Captor - more transparent tonewise and at least as good "feel".
It was very affordable, about a third as much as a captor.
Downsides are the 15 watt 8 ohm limitation which won't suit many Marshalls (I bought it for another 5w amp). They make a big swiss army version that I imagine is great (I've been impressed by the few AMT bits I have), unfortunately AMT is based in Siberia which poses a bit of a problem these days (hopefully Putin will die soon and things will get better).

The P&P Power Attenuator 50 is a French made device with little info available online (especially in English). It seems to be a resistive type using some form of "bridged T" design. This one is selectable between 8/16 ohm (a store option), has multiple 5db steps of attenuation between bypass, -10 and -30db and a mute switch to use as a silent load box (has a line out like the others). All this means it can be used with almost any amp and speaker (they sell a 100w version too), and can be left plugged in rather than needing to switch cables around.

I've only played 5 minutes but so far it has the most transparent tone - I don't need to compensate with the treble/presence like the captor. It does feel stiffer than unattenuated, but not to the point of unpleasantness, nearly like the difference between 2 of my amps.
I'll need to spend some more time with it and do some back and forth with the captor.

 

[MullardFillmore]

Here’s the attenuators I’ve owned and my OPINION on each.

Rockman- good for keeping a cup of coffee warm.

THD- Thin Fizzy

Original weber mass and mini- good design lots of useable features.

Palmer - works rather well for cleans and classic rock

Dr Z- very good but no line out which brought me to sell it.

Two Notes - nothing wrong with it Sounds good for any style.

Fryette power station -its a keeper. just the right amount of tonal options and it has an fx loop and it’s a power amp. My only gripe is I wish it had a level control for the line out.

 

[scozz]

This topic/context is rather subjective, though. I doubt one could really create concisive list. What might be 'interesting' is a comparison sheet with models and specs (as in construction quality, maximum "safe" load, type of load, etc). Also, a bill of materials for a couple of JohnH's attenuators or other "recipes" could be cool.

True, it’s as subjective as tone, what someone likes someone else might not.

My ears are old and damaged, and are not as discriminating as they used to be, lol.

 

[GJB17]

The ultimate...

 

[GJB17]

The ultimate...

 

[colchar]

Mmmm. I have a couple of Marshall dsl 402s and have had many amps. The best way to keep down the level is to use a really good clean channel and use an overdrive pedal in the front end. Man it solves all the issues and sounds miles better than any expensive attenuators. The dsl 40 has an amazing clean channel.

It doesn't solve the issue of getting power tube distortion.

 

[colchar]

I have two, a THD Hotplate, the purple 8 ohm, and a Marshall PowerBrake. I haven't used either since I retired from playing live. As I recall, the THD worked pretty well and I had to use the tone knobs on my Les Paul to adjust. The PowerBrake worked well on my Marshall Bluesbreaker reissue.

If you're not playing live any more and are looking to sell that amp.............

 

[colchar]

My ears are old and damaged, and are not as discriminating as they used to be, lol.

You might have said this as a joke, but it does bring up a very important point. Some, like me, have noise induced hearing loss. Not only do I not hear as well as I used to, but I am concerned about doing further damage to my hearing. Living situation (family, neighbours) aside, I need to keep volumes down but I do not want my amps to sound shitty when doing so (even with damaged hearing I can tell when something sounds bad). For people like me, or those who play in bars or wherever and cannot crank their 50 watters, units like attenuators are a necessity. Those who bitch about them need to realize that, and accept that while we would all like to play like the guys in the video below (gotta love Phil X) it simply isn't practical. Hell, I would go digital if I was able to discern differences between amp models or make them sound good! For many people, the need for an attenuator is as much a reality as the need for a patch cable.

 

[Gene Ballzz]

Hey Folks,

FIRST> To OP @colchar , I finally got one!

NEXT> The rather lengthy post from @TrueFifth was quite comprehensive, very informative and and quite well covered a lot of ground! And while the many of the "Re-amping" units can work VERY well, they don't really belong in this discussion, due to several factors. NOT being true attenuators is one, but affordability for those simply seeking to tame the volume of their favorite tube powered beast is certainly another! I notice that TrueFilth did not address the JohnH design , but DID mention Mike Lind at Masterplant.com and if I recall correctly, @JohnH has mentioned Mike on at least several occasions. This leads me to suspect that at least some of John's inspiration and guidance has come through Mr. Lind!

NOW> On to the discussion of what attenuation may really mean for the average, concerned guitarist (on a budget) of today. There are several key factors to consider and I will touch upon listing them first, and then espousing more on each, and not necessarily in order of importance.

VOLUME REDUCTION
RETENTION OF TONE
TACTILE FEEL
DYNAMIC RESPONSE
AIR MOVEMENT OF THE SPEAKER
FEEDBACK & IT'S HARMONIC CONTENT
LINE OUT
LOAD BOX/SILENT RECORDING
PRICE

It should be noted that the importance of any of the above characteristics is larger dependent on what equipment a player uses and how he or she uses it. At the opposite ends of the spectrum, for one who plugs their guitar directly into the amp and relies on power amp distortion/overdrive, combined with preamp overdrive and/or coloration to achieve their chosen sound, all of the above factors are very important, while one who uses pedal/foot/stomp/thingies or mostly preamp overdrive (as with a larger DSL or JVM style amp) to create and define their sound, it is less of a factor and many times (as with the DSL or JVM) the Master Volume is more than sufficient!

VOLUME REDUCTION> Most commercially available units (as well as many DIY units) are capable of accomplishing this in a manner that is safe for the amp. They allow the amp to be cranked/driven to their "sweet spot" and then tamed to a chosen room volume level. How much any given unit affects all the other factors is mostly dependent upon the overall design. All attenuators are certainly NOT all created equal!
RETENTION OF TONE> While kind of subjective and certainly a part of some other aspects, it is one of the more important parts. How these tones sound and feel are all tied together. An important aspect for preserving tone, feel and response is keeping a specific balance/ratio between parallel and series resistance, while keeping the input impedance within a suitable range. Most passive units (especially the ones that are continuously variable) tend to have only a couple or few tonal "sweet spots" while the areas in berween are rather lacluster, lifeless and dull at both the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.
TACTILE FEEL> Especially for those not using pedal thingies, this is the "bounciness" that is often well noticed on a cranked rig. This is quite closely related to tone, dynamic response and air movement and they all go hand in hand!
DYNAMIC RESPONSE> Again, closely related to tactile feel, it is that all important response of crossing the line between clean ad dirty, actuated by pick attack and strength of strumming, etc. Compression (either in front of the amp, within the amp or in the attenuator) is the enemy of this aspect, except when it is viewed and intentionally used as a natural part of a particular rig!
AIR MOVEMENT OF THE SPEAKER> This is a tough one! The laws of physics dictate how this affects most other aspects of tactile feel, dynamic response and feedback capabilities. Once we get below a certain point, it is very difficult to reatin. There have been multiple attempts and methods for compensating and/or mimicing this aspect, but the jury is still debating the pros and cons and most pale by comparison to the real thing. You simply can't "get yer pant legs flappin'" at "baby sleepin' in the next room volume levels!" The good news here is that even small increases in volume can bring some of this back, incrementally. This is an inherent and unavoidable compromise, as the volume goes down!
FEEDBACK & IT'S HARMONIC CONTENT> While closely tied to air movement, this aspect can be slightly enhanced and compensated for by gain before or within the amp. Unfortunately, like air movement, the universe provides "NO FREE LUNCH" here! Again, as with air movement, this is an inherent and unavoidable compromise, as the volume goes down!
LINE OUT> There are so many factors, compensations and adjustments to develop a really natural sounding "line out" that I've adopted the personal opinion that providing this option with an external device is the best way to go. An K&K Red Box or one of the many other similarly intended devices, that have all the bells and whistles can be used either before or after the attenuator. When it gets included in the attenuator it is quite often a compromise and usually jacks the price (and/or complication of build and operation) up exponentially.
LOAD BOX/SILENT RECORDING> Most well designed attenuators are suitable as a load box. Combined with all the mentioned aspects of a good "line out" life can be good!
PRICE> As with everything in life, you get what you pay for! Price wise, at the top of the heap of passive, non re-amping units, appears to be the ToneKing IRONMAN II. Near the bottom seems to be the Bugera PS1 and offerings from Weber. If the IRONMAN II lives up to its claims, it should be fabulous, though I've not yet experienced one. I have experienced the Weber and Bugera units, and can honestly say that they compromise many of the aspects mentioned above.

Enter the @JohnH design. This design retains almost all of the aspects mentioned here (air movement and feedback notwithstanding). For those adept at the use of simple shop tools and procedures, it comes in near the bottom of the price range, for a fairly simple 50 watt unit, at about $100-$150 for materials. The price jumps to around $260-$300 to have someone do it for you. While quite simple and easy to build, doing a good job, that also looks OK is VERY time consumptive! Having used most of the reasonably priced, commercially offered designs, I rate this as the best compromise for price, with little or no lack of performance! If they were made and available commercially the price would have to end up being near the $500 mark. And if all the bells and whistles of the IRONMAN II got added, it would need to be similarly priced. I am however surprised that no commercial enterprise has scooped up this non patented design and put it into a retail package. @JohnH really did his due diligence with the math and testing on this design! It truly is above and beyond ALL of the lower to medium priced passive units out there!

Well, There's My Rant!
Gene

 

[Paul6550]

I have a Marshall PB, from time immemorial, and then I bought the Ultimate Attenuator when I was all the rage on the interwebs. I like both for what they do - allow me to practice with my amp at home. But that's ALL they will do. I've learned that there is NO way you'll attenuate an amp and make it sound like when you play it loud. The physics just isn't there, I don't care what the sellers say. Lately, I've been favoring the PB, I think it doesn't color the sound as much as the UA.

 

[scozz]

You might have said this as a joke, but it does bring up a very important point. Some, like me, have noise induced hearing loss. Not only do I not hear as well as I used to, but I am concerned about doing further damage to my hearing. Living situation (family, neighbours) aside, I need to keep volumes down but I do not want my amps to sound shitty when doing so (even with damaged hearing I can tell when something sounds bad). For people like me, or those who play in bars or wherever and cannot crank their 50 watters, units like attenuators are a necessity. Those who bitch about them need to realize that, and accept that while we would all like to play like the guys in the video below (gotta love Phil X) it simply isn't practical. Hell, I would go digital if I was able to discern differences between amp models or make them sound good! For many people, the need for an attenuator is as much a reality as the need for a patch cable.

Haha, it IS something of a joke, but it’s also true. That’s what makes it a good joke imo,… an element of truth to it.

I can relate, that’s for sure, I have perpetual tinnitus and hearing loss in both ears. I’ve tried ear protection while playing, but it sounds terrible to me. Like a thick wool blanket over the speakers, can’t play that way.

So I try to keep the volume within reason, and be careful with the treble, treble is the real culprit I think. Once in a while I’ll open it up some when my wife’s out of the house, but not for too long.

Oh, and I use an attenuator most of the time. Even though it’s only a 20 watt amp, I can’t get to really opening up the power section without attenuating.

And there are some great tones in the Studio 800 circuit when pushing the master.

 

[colchar]

Oh, and I use an attenuator most of the time. Even though it’s only a 20 watt amp, I can’t get to really opening up the power section without attenuating.

The studio series are loud for 20 watts. And for me, my other amp was described by Metallica's sound guy as the loudest 30 watts he's ever heard when hearing Page's AD30 while he was doing sound for the Zeppelin reunion show.

With two loud-ass amps like that I pretty much have to attenuate.

My third amp is a vintage Traynor YGL3 which is their version of the Twin. Guess how loud that baby is!