Difference between Overdriven vs. Muddy Sounds

[bada222]

So, I've been exploring a lot of tone options with my new JVM.

But I feel like I'm missing some key points when it comes to the band's sound mixing.

So far, I've learned that:

1. More mids = more compression = can't have that cutting sound
2. More gain = more muddy(?) = same thing as above

But then I hear people "boosting" their mids with equilizers and such for solos.

Also, Slash (Yes yes, I know another Slash fanboy.) and a lot of other 80's artists have that signature driven guitar sound.

I understand that that sort of drive comes from crankin up the tubes, and I somehow just cannot find that sweet spot where my tone is slightly heavily overdriven but also punchy and fat (no muddy!).

The Crunch RED with a boost pedal sounds too harsh to me.
The OD Orange is what I like but it does sound a bit compressed and thin at times.

I guess tommorow I'll play around with the resonance and presence but if anybody has had any experience close to mine, please share and give some advice.

Thank you!

 

[sccloser]

I am no expert, but I have posted this before and this is how I look at it.

Without going into my sonic frequency layer theory, I'll just say that in a traditional rock band the guitars are mid range instruments. That is their sonic space. When you adjust for strong mids, your sound will be heard more easily because you are not competing sonically with other instruments. EQ for alot of low end, you compete with the bass. EQ lots of treble/highs and compete with the vocals and cymbals. Scoop your mids too much and compete with both. Running lots of gain tends to have a similar effect. You can be loud as all get out on your own, but within the band you get lost in the mix. IMO the cymbals wash you out with too much gain.
To cut through you need to not use too much OD and boost your mids IMO.

 

[khan]

It's a hard issue to deal with. The mud comes form a lot of similar tones just jamming into the same space. That's why it's good to have guitars sound distinctly different from each other...moreso in live situations. And make sure the bass isn't stomping all over the mid to lower-mid frequencies. Sometimes...well, usually the tone that makes your guitar sound great to you alone is not going the be the tone that sounds great in concert with the other instruments. Oh, the tone might sound great but, mixed with so many similar tones in the same frequency range in a live setting, all of the clarity get's mushed together like mashed potatoes.
My solution (and this works for me, something else may work for somebody else) is to listen to each instrument and find it's sweet spot frequency range. Reduce the more minor frequencies (not totally removing them but, reducing their prominence. Do that for each guitar. You're not trying to thin out the tone but, rather refine the tone. Don't forget the bass. Get the bass out of the guitar range as much as possible w/o sacrificing the players' tone. Ultimately, each instrument on it's own might not sound ideal but, in unisone with everything else, the WHOLE sound will be crisp and defined. My settings when I'm just jamming on the guitar are way different than when I play with my band...and fortunately, my tone and the other guitarists' tone are pretty distinct from each other to begin with so, it's no major surgery to get some more separation in there. If your drummer doesn't tune his/her drums...get them to start. You get that thunderous dissonance enveloping everything else and you get mud too. Listen to yourself and identify your sound and then work on everybody else. It's not an easy thing to do after you've been "hearing" yourself sound good a certain way. I do think this will help your live sound. Also, don't use studio recordings to compare your sound to. The process for mixing studio sound is totally alien to mixing live sound (unless you're totally digital and your tones/sounds are synthesized).

 

[bada222]

Thanks a lot guys!

So its more of finding each instrument's sweet spot without clashing with each other rather than let say, finding each instrument's best tone.

Also,

I ust a JVM 205, which is a master volume amp.

I've read that lowering the master volume itself gives distortion, and to have the most 'clean' sound I'm supposed to have the master maxed at 10 while adjusting my overall volume with the OD Channel volume.

Can someone back me up on this fact?

Lastly,

For the EQ settings on the amp itself, am I supposed to boost the "mid" level here, or should I invest on a 10/7 Band EQ instead?

I know using my ears is the best thing to do, but I just feel like I don't have enough experience and knowledge to sort this through out myself.

Thanks. (also, we have a keyboard lol..)


Edit:

Also, how do I relate the Amp's EQ to the Pedal EQ?

 

[khan]

I'm not familiar with JVM series amps at all so, I'll leave that to somebody who knows what they're talking about.
You are correct about the Master controlling output levels, though it will drive the power tubes to distort and the pre or gain output basically pushes the preamp tubes. You can also clean up the sound by using the volume pots on your guitar and then reserving the rest for a lead or some other point of emphasis. As an example, I generally run my Strat between 5-6 80-90 percent of the time.

And it sounds like your get the nuance of adjusting tone. As you call it, the sweet spot. That's a pretty good grasp of the concept.

I'm a cheapskate, I say start with what you've got and exhaust the options. I'd wait to start throwing other devices in the chain before you can see just how far you can go with your amp and guitar settings. You may be surprised. Again, my example is that I have three tone pedals on my pedal board. Each one set to a distinct area of the sound spectrum, one thick/fat distortion, one more mid overdrive boost and another razor piercing shrill almost. I used to for emphasis on certain parts.

I can generally get enough separation between the other guitarist and me with just the tone controls on my amp (jcm800 btw).

I think you're asking the right questions and the fact that you're even sensitive to what's going on with your live sound puts you light years ahead of a lot of other musicians out there. Good luck!

 

[medicjg]

One mans mud is another mans gold....

 

[diesect20022000]

a good quality amp and tubes keeps the mud factor down. Framus Dragons are clear no matter how much gain you use.

 

[rjtm]

Also, muddiness can come from the Pickups if they arent good quality

 

[medicjg]

Or good pups too close or too far from the strings.

 

[kamran]

Thanks a lot guys!

So its more of finding each instrument's sweet spot without clashing with each other rather than let say, finding each instrument's best tone.

Also,

I ust a JVM 205, which is a master volume amp.

I've read that lowering the master volume itself gives distortion, and to have the most 'clean' sound I'm supposed to have the master maxed at 10 while adjusting my overall volume with the OD Channel volume.

Can someone back me up on this fact?

Lastly,

For the EQ settings on the amp itself, am I supposed to boost the "mid" level here, or should I invest on a 10/7 Band EQ instead?

I know using my ears is the best thing to do, but I just feel like I don't have enough experience and knowledge to sort this through out myself.

Thanks. (also, we have a keyboard lol..)


Edit:

Also, how do I relate the Amp's EQ to the Pedal EQ?

Hey, gotta correct you on the master volume comment. There is really no difference in the master volume and the channel volume. The ONLY way to get the power tubes to start distorting is to run it extremely loud. Doesn't matter if the master volume is up and the channel volume is down or vice versa unless you're running effects in your loop, that's the only thing between the master volume and the channel volume.

 

[sccloser]

What power tubes are you running? I noticed that my =C= tubes, which have great bass response, was causing my 2205 to sound muddy when using the neck pups on my LP and SG. I swapped some Tesla's in and cleaned it up. Just another factor in the quest for tone. If I was a blues only player the =C= tubes would have worked great.

 

[diesect20022000]

What power tubes are you running? I noticed that my =C= tubes, which have great bass response, was causing my 2205 to sound muddy when using the neck pups on my LP and SG. I swapped some Tesla's in and cleaned it up. Just another factor in the quest for tone. If I was a blues only player the =C= tubes would have worked great.

yeah honestly i'm not a winged C fan for the same reasons, they mush out under pressure. some people like that but, i like that agressive bark of a pushed KT-77 opr E34L. the others i personaly do well with are mullards but, mullards are too much for little tonal color added for me. i focus on preamp tubes for tone but, i'm a high gain player too.

 

[sccloser]

I loved =C= el 34's in my JTM 30 (I converted it to el34) because it gave it some balls. They worked well in that circuit. These are the exact same tubes. I bought them in 1999 or 2000. But in the 800, the bottom end was mushy as you say. I also like the JJ e34L tubes.

 

[diesect20022000]

I loved =C= el 34's in my JTM 30 (I converted it to el34) because it gave it some balls. They worked well in that circuit. These are the exact same tubes. I bought them in 1999 or 2000. But in the 800, the bottom end was mushy as you say. I also like the JJ e34L tubes.

my Dragon's the only large amp i own right now and the crunch channel (where i float) is a super high gain 2203 circuit and the leads an SLO so that's probably why, i've noticed that 800 esque amps sound sloppy with them. My DSL was only so so and my 4500 sounded good though with them though i prefered the KT-77's then too.

 

[sccloser]

One thing is for sure, with the price of the =C='s getting up to $80 a pair, I do not think they offer anything worth the extra ca$h when JJ's E34L's sound as good as they do for less than half the cost.

 

[big dooley]

read this:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/20988-onorthodox-way-dialing-eq.html?highlight=onorthodox