DSL & 2203 compared...

[maltone]

Here goes. I'm interested in buying a used DSL 100 I played through last week. I loved the sound I got - strictly on the clean & crunch channel. I'll NEVER need to use the red channel.

However popular these amps are, they are constructed with PCB's and many agree not as simple and robust as the JCM 800 2203 models.

I have a good friend who's an electronics engineer, and understands all of the math and details associated with these circuits.

QUESTION 1: If I provided him with the schematic for the clean/crunch channel on the DSL 100, would the part values used on the DSL be the same values found on the 2203 MV model?

QUESTION 2:
If we made a list of values used on the DSL's clean/crunch circuit, and replicated those values in a turret board, hand wired version, would they sound the same?

Sounds a bit ridiculous, but, all I really want is a much simpler version of the DSL 100's clean/crunch circuit with the MV - and that's it. I would buy the "right" JCM 800 if I could find one that sounded as good as the DSL. - Backwards sounding - I know.

I know the DSL 100's clean/crunch circuit based on the JCM 800 - but which one?

The goal here is to basically have a hand-wired/turret board version of the DSL, with the MV, clean/crunch, and that's it. Simple. Any ideas folks? Thanks.

 

[jcmjmp]

JCM800 2203 is also a PCB based construction, albeit, less complex.

In terms of commonality, the power amp is identical on both amps. The preamps are completely different.

If you like the DSL's green channel, just get the DSL. They're good, reliable amps.

 

[Ken]

Frankly I'd find the task of creating a hand wired DSL green channel amp to be far beyond what it would be worth. DSL's are modern circuit designs that don't lend themselves to a p to p construction like older, simpler amps. But it sure would be an amazing project if it were ever completed!

If you want to compare the DSL's schematic to the 800, look here:

Marshall Amps Info & Schematics

But in the end, I'd buy an 800 or DSL for sound, not reliability.

Ken

 

[jensbrix]

I don't really think there's any problems with reliability, I'd go with the DSL. With a few mods you can also make the OD1 an extension of the crunch, with one more gainstage being used, which you can use for solos or so.

The DSL's crunch is kinda based on a 2203, but there are some differences. It uses one more gainstage, and have some small differences from the 2203 circuit, which can easily be changed though. I modded my crunch channel to be pretty much a 2203 with an extra gainstage, and it's pretty easy to do

 

[maltone]

Thanks to all for the input. I do get the impression the DSL is a fairly robust and worthy amp. Also, I probably shouldn't read everything I come across, but I found this article http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/TSL122.html. "JC" goes on to explain that "in all JCM2000's so far (TSL's, DSL's) I've found 220k grid block resistors on the power tubes instead of the customary 5k6 as indicated in all schematics - converting them to stock values definitely makes an audible change !"

What if there's some underlying problem on the board just waiting to happen? I know some of these amps can get very hot, and with a PCB design, that kind of worries me. The solder traces etc...

Can someone tell me, is there a known issue(s) with the DSL model that Marshall overlooked, that owners here have repaired or upgraded?

Ken - this would never be a gigging amp, or travel very much. But it already has. The DSL I'm interested in is a 2007, which belonged to the store I might be buying it from. They've rented it out (I can find out from their records how many times, if it's had any repairs over the years, it's all there in the file.) I hear you with the sound over reliability issue. It's just more money now, I'm selling a 2nd amp to finance this used one, and I just don't want any headaches after I get it.

To keep things practical and realistic, I'll most likely end up with this amp, it sounded really good to me. I'm just worried about it being gigged with so much - and who knows how some of those renters treated it?

Again, thanks.

 

[jcmjmp]

Thanks to all for the input. I do get the impression the DSL is a fairly robust and worthy amp. Also, I probably shouldn't read everything I come across, but I found this article The Marshall TSL122 JCM2000 Repair/Mods Page. "JC" goes on to explain that "in all JCM2000's so far (TSL's, DSL's) I've found 220k grid block resistors on the power tubes instead of the customary 5k6 as indicated in all schematics - converting them to stock values definitely makes an audible change !"

What if there's some underlying problem on the board just waiting to happen? I know some of these amps can get very hot, and with a PCB design, that kind of worries me. The solder traces etc...

I don't give too much credibility to that "lynx.bc.ca" site because everything is so exaggerated.

The early JCM2000 amp schematics actually spec'd 220k blockers and the design was later modified for 5.6k. This proves that this guy doesn't even have access to the different revs of the schematics. He doesn't even have his facts straight and probably can't even tell how to determine which schematic to reference given a board number.

His whole take on the NTC resistors is also exaggerated IMO. I have never seen this.... and I've seen many DSL/TSLs

 

[maltone]

Good to know JCM, I'm just going to make the plunge. I mean it's a 2007 - that's not very old. And it sounded really good. I'll just stick with that.

I'm going to put more money on it in a few days. But I have to get the guy to drop the taxes. Our HST (Harmony Sales Tax) in Canada is a joke - and on a used item!

 

[chadjwil]

Not to be contradictory to JCM, he's certainly been inside more DSLs than I have, but my DSL was loaded with NTCs. I have an early model, issue 3 tube board, and I replaced over 20 resistors that I found to be badly NTC, including the bias pots. In another DSL I checked out I found that the 1 ohm bias monitor resistors went to 3+ ohms in a matter of seconds under a hair dryer...not good. This was an issue 6 tube board and to its credit I didn't find any other faulty resistors on it...and the 1 ohmers looked like they may have been replacements at that.

So in my albeit limited experience I have seen the NTC (and PTC) thing first hand...what I'm skeptical of is the "crappy fiberglass board acting as a thermistor" phenomenon that I've heard a lot about. depending on how you test for thermal related issues I can see how someone might think that it's the board itself is causing the problems, it was pretty shocking to me at first! But just a little diligence and patience got me to the real root of the problem, resistors, not the board.

Now, having said all that...I only found my thermal problem like a month ago and I've been giggin with that amp for over 10 years. Reliability issues, huh? I basically straight abused that amp for the first few years I owned it. Checking the bias...what's that? Throw it in the back of the truck with all the tubes in it, drive 40 miles to a job and fire it straight up. Change the tubes every year...are you nuts! Those things are stupid expensive! On and on like that and it help up through all of it.

Just my take, everyones experiences are different but this has been mine

 

[jcmjmp]

Not to be contradictory to JCM, he's certainly been inside more DSLs than I have, but my DSL was loaded with NTCs. I have an early model, issue 3 tube board, and I replaced over 20 resistors that I found to be badly NTC, including the bias pots. In another DSL I checked out I found that the 1 ohm bias monitor resistors went to 3+ ohms in a matter of seconds under a hair dryer...not good.

Any resistor will fluctuate with a hair dryer blowing on it. Also, maybe that resistor was cracked and the temp change caused it to separate a little more. I've seen that in the last TSL I worked on.

 

[Ken]

I'm just going to make the plunge.

That's the best attitude really. So many people who have not played more than a few amps in their lives try to split hairs to get the "perfect" amp based on other people's opinions. Just buy a tube Marshall! It will sound great with new tubes and a bias, whatever the model. If you find an amp you like better, sell it and buy that one! You'll never get the 'best' amp for you if you don't own/play a bunch of amps to get an idea of what they are like. I love my DSL but if I had a JVM, TSL, any 800, SL-X, Jube, 6100...I'm sure I would still be making sounds I liked.

Ken

 

[maltone]

Re: DSL & 2203 compared... KEN...

Ken, I think you're bang on there. It's so completely reasonable to me, but not my wife! She thinks I'm nuts. "You're going to sell the 2nd amp you've bought for yet another one? When will it be ENOUGH?"

I've been through one VM 50 watt, thought it was the sound, it wasn't.
Tried the Fender Supersonic 22 watt - LOVE this amp, but isn't getting me where I want to feel it.

Then, this DSL 100. I'm obsessing about it, because that classic channel, or green channel just blew my mind. The definition, oomhp, warmth, and immediacy of the chords, the articulation of each string etc.

It almost felt like when a woman puts her hand on your thigh under a table in a bar, and gives you a squeeze - and you just KNOW what it means by how it feels. It was that kind of moment. The sound is clear, punchy, yet not too clean. Slight grit when you dig in. That's one of the best sounds in the world!

 

[Alabama Thunderpussy]

I absolutely loved my DSL and only got rid of it because i needed a fender combo for my current gig. I would dig the idea of AB-ing a 2204 with a DSL50, using the 2204 for rhythm and the DSL for lead tones. But that being said, a very 800-like tone can be appropriated from the DSL even stock, and especially modded.

 

[diesect20022000]

Re: DSL & 2203 compared... KEN...

Ken, I think you're bang on there. It's so completely reasonable to me, but not my wife! She thinks I'm nuts. "You're going to sell the 2nd amp you've bought for yet another one? When will it be ENOUGH?"

I've been through one VM 50 watt, thought it was the sound, it wasn't.
Tried the Fender Supersonic 22 watt - LOVE this amp, but isn't getting me where I want to feel it.

Then, this DSL 100. I'm obsessing about it, because that classic channel, or green channel just blew my mind. The definition, oomhp, warmth, and immediacy of the chords, the articulation of each string etc.

It almost felt like when a woman puts her hand on your thigh under a table in a bar, and gives you a squeeze - and you just KNOW what it means by how it feels. It was that kind of moment. The sound is clear, punchy, yet not too clean. Slight grit when you dig in. That's one of the best sounds in the world!

say the same thing to her about shoes: "you're going to sell the 2nd pair of shoes you ever bought for yet another one? When will it be ENOUGH?"

 

[maltone]

Re: DSL & 2203 compared...Women's Shoes...

That's too funny. Only she's not that into shopping. She's very practical that way. I was half kidding anyway. I told her about the amp again today, and she gets it. It's all in the pitch!

Interesting segue here. Today I went to a local used music store, just to check out a used DSL 50 - which had already been sold. One of the guys that works there, said, "hey man, check out this amp".

It was an Orange, definitely older, but I'd never seen one like it. He plugged into it with a Gibson - and it blew my mind. It was a 1994 Orange OR 120 that he bought for himself a few months back for $1200.00 Canadian! It was in the shop for a re-tube, and I thought it was for sale.

What a BADASS amp. I mean KILLER. It's a very strange looking beast:
http://www.coveramp.com/uploads/AmpRange/orange%20or120.jpg

Now I want one of those too! It's got this knob on it called F.O.C. - not sure what it stands for, but the owner who works at the store said it's basically a tone shifter - the left most setting more bass - turn clockwise for more treble - almost like a Presence control, but it also had a presence.

As he turned the master up to about 3, gain up higher, it sounded like a fantastic Marshall. What a superb sounding piece of gear.

 

[jcmjmp]

I don't even tell my wife about my amp dealings anymore. She doesn't care so its all good.

 

[maltone]

JCM, yeah, I think I'll do the same. My next thing over the year, will be to source all the parts, OT, power transformer etc for the OR 120.

I'd love to get all the parts, (I have the OR 120 1970's schematic) and get my friend to help me wire the thing. I have to have one of these. Just like a side project with no fixed timeline. That amp was amazing!

 

[jcmjmp]

JCM, yeah, I think I'll do the same. My next thing over the year, will be to source all the parts, OT, power transformer etc for the OR 120.

I'd love to get all the parts, (I have the OR 120 1970's schematic) and get my friend to help me wire the thing. I have to have one of these. Just like a side project with no fixed timeline. That amp was amazing!

I should build a tiny terror.

 

[maltone]

JCM - I tried a tiny terror last year. It didn't do it for me. It just didn't have that honk. It sounded tinny and kind of... gainy, but no real personality.

Now of course they have the dark terror. Man, if you can get your hands on an OR 120 - that is a keeper. I'm sure you've seen them in your travels. This was a first for me. What a cool amp, totally British, and very odd looking with that FOC dial.

 

[diesect20022000]

Re: DSL & 2203 compared...Women's Shoes...

That's too funny. Only she's not that into shopping. She's very practical that way. I was half kidding anyway. I told her about the amp again today, and she gets it. It's all in the pitch!

Interesting segue here. Today I went to a local used music store, just to check out a used DSL 50 - which had already been sold. One of the guys that works there, said, "hey man, check out this amp".

It was an Orange, definitely older, but I'd never seen one like it. He plugged into it with a Gibson - and it blew my mind. It was a 1994 Orange OR 120 that he bought for himself a few months back for $1200.00 Canadian! It was in the shop for a re-tube, and I thought it was for sale.

What a BADASS amp. I mean KILLER. It's a very strange looking beast:
http://www.coveramp.com/uploads/AmpRange/orange or120.jpg

Now I want one of those too! It's got this knob on it called F.O.C. - not sure what it stands for, but the owner who works at the store said it's basically a tone shifter - the left most setting more bass - turn clockwise for more treble - almost like a Presence control, but it also had a presence.

As he turned the master up to about 3, gain up higher, it sounded like a fantastic Marshall. What a superb sounding piece of gear.

Yeah it was meant to be funny. I'm more of a shopper than my wife too lol.

 

[jcmjmp]

JCM - I tried a tiny terror last year. It didn't do it for me. It just didn't have that honk. It sounded tinny and kind of... gainy, but no real personality.

Now of course they have the dark terror. Man, if you can get your hands on an OR 120 - that is a keeper. I'm sure you've seen them in your travels. This was a first for me. What a cool amp, totally British, and very odd looking with that FOC dial.

This is a Tiny Terror through a V30 loaded 2x12 homemade cab. Everyone was blown away with the tone.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atv0kpGhtv8]UNGLUED - a STP tribute - perform Dead & Bloated followed by Down - YouTube[/ame]



Listen to the solo (below) @ approx 1:50. That pretty damn good tone if you ask me.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GtZ4UDHR4w&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]

Sounded HUGE.