In search of authentic plexi tones at practical volumes and setups

[FutureProf88]

The endless search carries on. I know they cane out with a 20 watt plexi style recently and I’m not sure how it stacks up to the old ones.

When I had a remote place I loved cranking my yjm plexi style 100 watt in front of a 4 x 12, but haven’t found a way to use it otherwise.

There are obviously very specific aspects of the physics of these amp and cab setups that gave up the great classic rock Marshall tones up to Van Halen before master volume changed the game.

there are things about those non MV el34 circuits into 4 greenback that make the right sag, dynamics, color, feel, etc and I was wondering how close we have gotten to getting all those things right without needing unusablu high volume levels. Personally the newer master volume more front gainy type amps don’t quite get you there. And I mostly just see people using that stuff for more modern metal type playing which isn’t my jam.

the issue for me is the options, mods, speakers, tweaks, etc are a but overwhelming to choose especially since I can’t just buy a ton of stuff and experiment. So I have to get it right. I also know that the power and particular volume breaks up the old speakers a certain way which is a part of the sound that’s hard to get without it.

Also my damn yjm head is just about too heavy and bulky for 1 person to carry alone so it’s a pain to get around lol.

I’ve been out Of the loop a while with newer stuff so was wondering if technologies, maybe modeling amps Or new gear has gotten that stuff right? I know attenuators are nice but I also don’t really want to get a plexi drive or distortion type pedal either.

there is gotta be a way to get that stuff right cause it’s my favorite amp sound and feel and haven’t gotten it elsewhere. Would love to have one that’s easy and not crazy hard to use pulling up to jam or most live or practice.


Anyways just thinking and rambling about the subject. Maybe the new studio 20 ways is really all I need.

It’s more So a fun discussion and thought than anything really too. What do you guys think? Any interesting failed or successful setups? Thanks!

From my own experience, I have found that a combination of methods works well. A 2x12 cabinet that is well built with the right speakers can give you some really nice punch that doesn't sound that dissimilar to a 4x12. It will feel different, but everything here is going to feel different at low volume because you just aren't moving as much air.

Heavy attenuation (down to bedroom levels) will color the sound, but attenuators are a good tool. Heavy use of a post phase inverter master volume will color the sound, but a PPIMV is a good tool. The setup that I use at rehearsals with my band right now is this:

Granger JTM45/100 with a PPIMV set to noon. This is high enough that the Presence control works and I get get a bit of juice out of the KT66's. That runs into a Tone King Ironman attenuator set to -14. That then runs into a Germino open back 212 loaded with G12H150's. The end result is a volume that we can use at 'writing rehearsals,' where we are trying to arrange a song or need to be able to talk to one another and don't want to wear earplugs all night. It is louder than a TV set, but after 2 hours of playing like that there's no ear fatigue or tinnitus. It's about the volume level of being in a movie theater. It also still retains enough touch sensitivity that if I pick gently it will clean up even if I don't roll the guitar volume back that much, and it will snarl if I really dig into it.

 

['2204']

Another idea would be to get one of '50th Anniversary' 1w JMP amps & add an 'Unleash' to it if it doesn`t get to your desired volume on its own. I had one & though it was limited in ways, 1 watt is somewhat loud--definitely louder than 'bedroom volumes' when totally dimed. It had decent Plexi tones too & you could add volume w/ the 'Unleash' if it`s not loud enough.

 

[trax1139]

V-man pretty much has it right, although I hate attenuators and won’t use them.
The original question was how to get authentic Plexi (tones) at practical volumes and set ups. He then talks about sag, dynamics, feel, and color. I will add heft, gravitas and imposition. You can get Plexi “tones” from a Casio wrist watch app and a CD recorder. All the good stuff...not so much.
I would go out on a limb here and and guess that most have never plugged into a 1959 with 2 4x12s in a band context and experienced the feel aspect of it all. It’s really not about the volume. IMO, the little amps, little 1x12 combos are way too loud, small and offensive sounding. Plug in to a 35 watt JTM45 with a 4x12 and Greenbacks and play it softly. It’s not loud-its big.

 

[marshallmellowed]

V-man pretty much has it right, although I hate attenuators and won’t use them.
The original question was how to get authentic Plexi (tones) at practical volumes and set ups. He then talks about sag, dynamics, feel, and color. I will add heft, gravitas and imposition. You can get Plexi “tones” from a Casio wrist watch app and a CD recorder. All the good stuff...not so much.
I would go out on a limb here and and guess that most have never plugged into a 1959 with 2 4x12s in a band context and experienced the feel aspect of it all. It’s really not about the volume. IMO, the little amps, little 1x12 combos are way too loud, small and offensive sounding. Plug in to a 35 watt JTM45 with a 4x12 and Greenbacks and play it softly. It’s not loud-its big.

Exactly, the small amps are still loud, in some cases as loud as a mildly attenuated 100w. The biggest difference (at least to me) is the punch and low end that's just not present in the smaller amps, but that's to be expected.

 

[trax1139]

100% right on!
I hate to come off like the “old timer” in the room, but, I will double down on my “out on a limb comment” and change the wording from most to the overwhelming majority have not played through a big rig...a least in a rock band context.
I’ve been on both sides of the stage as a performer and sound tech through the 70s-mid 90s. On duty as sound dude (specially in small clubs), I hated it when the guitar player would show up with some small combo rig and a rack of electronics that could launch a space shuttle. Same thing nearly every time! Way, way, way too loud. Let me back up a little...not necessarily too loud, just sound like shit...loud, trebly, thin, fizzy. I would think-turn that little MFr off!
A lot of modern bass players are guilt of the same thing. They show up a 2x10 or 12 cab and want to lay down a foundation for the band. It all just ends up too loud and weak sounding. Everybody’s banging on “11” to try and get some big tone. It ain’t there!!
Small room? Big rigs rule and you don’t need a big pa or sound dude. Ampeg SVT and 8x10 cab or Fender Super Bassman 300 Pro with 8x10s a Marshall JTM45/100 or 1959, a good drummer and a couple guys that know their gear and can play with dynamics will kill in a club environment.
And not be too loud

 

[Benny2112]

As another "old timer" here, I have played my share of "big rigs" in a rock band context. And I can tell you, you just can't get away with that kind of stage volume anymore. I would go round and round with soundmen back then because my plexi was on 10 and that's where it needed to be to get the tone.

Fast forward to today and I'm still going round and round with soundmen over my stage volume and I'm not even playing as loud as I was back then with my plexi on 10.

To your point, there is nothing like standing in front of a full Marshall stack and literally feeling the air pushing against your back when you're standing in front of it and the tone is pure heaven. However, it's just not practical in the smaller venues today. And, seeing as I'm not a young dude anymore, lugging that much gear around is just too rough.

 

[marshallmellowed]

I've seen some guys using 100w heads and 4x12's locally, but they're either master volume amps or they're using attenuators. I still wouldn't want to have to move them around, and a lot of indoor venues in our area (but not all) have very limited space for bands to setup.

 

[trax1139]

It’s not my point to say standing in front of a big Plexi rig is just fun. My point is it’s not too loud. 111-115db is 111-115 dB no matter what is making the noise. A little combo doing 112 is just small and offensive. It doesn’t produce the full range of frequencies equally. But it’s still 112 dB.
It’s too much gear? Too heavy and bulky....now your getting closer to the real issue. People just don’t have the will or drive to do anything nowadays

 

[351]

It's like saying can I get the effect of eating an entire chocolate mudcake by eating just one small piece of it.
In the case of a typical plexi tone, it's not the tone itself but the rather savage delivery of that tone that defines that typical tone.
There are some things that can't be emulated succesfully, this is one of them.
There is a holy grail tone at the centre of this plexi tone matter, It is exciting and I hope you get a taste of it .

 

[marshallmellowed]

This old video comes to mind, this guy gets it and has experienced it...

 

[Kelia]

The 1974x really blew me away when they came out years ago,
that crappy blowing output tranny had mojo and also the aged treatment Greenback that
was in that combo sounded awesome for a small amp ! Reall Plexi Kossoff tone in a small format !

 

[scozz]

I think your statement "Either way it's still going to be loud" says it all. You just can't get there at low volume, it's always going to be a compromise, to some degree. For those that find the Studio amps "too loud", they'd be wasting their money on a bigger amp, unless they can open it up a bit (not talking deafening levels, but also, not "bedroom").

I agree with this completely. I don’t know what ‘bedroom volumes’ means to everyone, but if it is literal in any sense,.. these amps are not for that. Maybe I shouldn’t put it that way, they’ll not perform their best used that way.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

It’s not my point to say standing in front of a big Plexi rig is just fun. My point is it’s not too loud. 111-115db is 111-115 dB no matter what is making the noise. A little combo doing 112 is just small and offensive. It doesn’t produce the full range of frequencies equally. But it’s still 112 dB.
It’s too much gear? Too heavy and bulky....now your getting closer to the real issue. People just don’t have the will or drive to do anything nowadays

I don't know what regulations are in the US, but here in Continental Europe, there's absolutely no way you can use that. Not even close.

https://www.live-dma.eu/sound-regulations-in-europe/

 

[slagg]

Funny

 

[paul-e-mann]

Another idea would be to get one of '50th Anniversary' 1w JMP amps & add an 'Unleash' to it if it doesn`t get to your desired volume on its own. I had one & though it was limited in ways, 1 watt is somewhat loud--definitely louder than 'bedroom volumes' when totally dimed. It had decent Plexi tones too & you could add volume w/ the 'Unleash' if it`s not loud enough.

This is a good idea I hadn't considered before!

 

[Sacalait]

The SV most def nails the tones of an old-school plexi. What it doesn't do is move the air those giant amps move. So it will sound "smaller" or more "narrow" than the big brothers. It's the law of physics. I noticed this playing my JVM205H next to my SV20H.

 

[tallcoolone]

Why do people post long questions then just go dark? Do you think they do that in real life lol?

 

[Benny2112]

It’s not my point to say standing in front of a big Plexi rig is just fun. My point is it’s not too loud. 111-115db is 111-115 dB no matter what is making the noise. A little combo doing 112 is just small and offensive. It doesn’t produce the full range of frequencies equally. But it’s still 112 dB.
It’s too much gear? Too heavy and bulky....now your getting closer to the real issue. People just don’t have the will or drive to do anything nowadays

I will have to disagree with you here. A cranked, plexi full stack would definitely be too loud on today's small stages. Back in the day when I was using mine, most of the time there would be a mic in front of my cabinet, but it wouldn't be on. And I would still dominate the mix.

And as far as not wanting to lug around a lot of heavy gear, it's not about not having the drive or will to do it. I am an older, regularly gigging (at least I was pre-Covid) musician with a bad back. The shows we play are with multiple bands and set up/tear downs have to be done quickly. These factors are what got me to a downsized rig. Does my SV20H and 2x12 cab sound just like a full plexi stack? Of course not. But does it still sound fantastic, give me the tone I want, not break my back and is able to be set up and tore down quickly? You bet.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

The sag and bounce of a plexi comes from a power supply that's inadequate to sustain current and voltage delivery to the output stage at full demand. To duplicate that feel, a smaller amp would also have to be built with a power supply that is somewhat too small for it, too.

This can be problematic when considering very low powered amps. How tiny would the supply have to be for a 5 watt amp?

 

[scozz]

I don't know what regulations are in the US, but here in Continental Europe, there's absolutely no way you can use that. Not even close.

https://www.live-dma.eu/sound-regulations-in-europe/

Wow, government regulations on sound in privately owned business’?! I know European governments love to impose restrictions on its citizens,... but man!

Do they actually enforce these laws?

With what happened here, (USA), in November 2020, we may be headed towards a similar type of overbearing federal regulations.