JCM 800 vs. JCM 2000 DSL?

[RiverRatt]

oh well... i've never been a hero with the theory on electronics...
that's why i looked the video's on eurotubes a couple of times to be sure...
and every info on the internet, about biassing a DSL/TSL head say's to measure mV at the testpoints and set the bias at 80/90mV (for 100watts)...
so when somebody's stating to set the bias at 80/90mA on the testpoints...
well then my own head will have a short circuit inside

no offence, but for noobs like me, this can get confusing

Yes, it is confusing. That's why I like forums so much. They are like a collective intelligence. Together we are all smarter than we are individually. Just keep asking questions and learning. I went through a pretty intense period of study a couple of years ago because I wanted to learn to at least repair simple problems with tube amps. The tech I've used since the 1980's picked up in 2006 and decided he wanted to be an over-the-road trucker, and there's no one else around within 100 miles or so. I mainly wanted to learn how to poke around in the amp without killing myself. I just didn't want you to think I'd put out some bad advice that could harm you or your amp, but thanks for calling me on it anyway. There have been plenty of times when I wish someone would have and didn't!

 

[steelhorse]

I like the fact that with just a multimeter(s) you can bias the 2000. In my case I use 2 multimeters; 1 clipped to the left and 1 to the right test points of the 2000 and the grounds clipped to ground I can get it dialed right in.

Thanks for the info River!

 

[billdncn]

An EQ in the loop of your DSL can help by cutting the harsh frequencies.

I have owned 4 DSL's and 3 TSL's over the years. I now have what I should have gotten a long time ago. JCM800 2203. Love it! Don't miss any of the JCM2000's I've had. With a MXR 10-band in the loop (yes, it's a reissue), and a boost out front, it's all I need. I'm using a Tonebone Classic now and between it and the EQ I can get sooo many different tones and sounds. I can get a pretty damn good Vai tone. Jason Becker is my hero (for more then one reason) and I love trying to cop his sound. It's part of the only reason I play anymore..... Trying to acheive the tones of my favorites.

The DSL (I think) is better for home use at lower volumes, but the 800 cranked? Well, It's just no comparision.

You could have your DSL modded if you want to go that route. Just a thought.

I could go on. A lot of things can attribute to harshness as stated. Use a warm sounding guitar (USA Jackson with ebony for me) as maple can sound brighter. Use good quality cables and pick ups, etc.

Just my 1/2 cent worth. Good luck

 

[steelhorse]

I agree tone is subjective. I for one haven't heard an 800 I've liked or I would have bought one by now, and being a minimalist with respect to effects, I prefer using an amp I don't have to use a drive pedal on, it simply colors the tone too much.

Don't get me wrong the 800 has a great rep, I just haven't personally heard one I'd want to own. I think you either have to mod one to your liking which I suppose you could do with most any amp anyway, or get lucky and find a great one.

I tell myself the 800 must be great amps as so many metal monsters use the 800 as the basis for their signature models. Of course those signature amps are modified to suit the particular artist.

 

[spaceforlease]

An EQ in the loop of your DSL can help by cutting the harsh frequencies.

I have owned 4 DSL's and 3 TSL's over the years. I now have what I should have gotten a long time ago. JCM800 2203. Love it! Don't miss any of the JCM2000's I've had. With a MXR 10-band in the loop (yes, it's a reissue), and a boost out front, it's all I need. I'm using a Tonebone Classic now and between it and the EQ I can get sooo many different tones and sounds. I can get a pretty damn good Vai tone. Jason Becker is my hero (for more then one reason) and I love trying to cop his sound. It's part of the only reason I play anymore..... Trying to acheive the tones of my favorites.

The DSL (I think) is better for home use at lower volumes, but the 800 cranked? Well, It's just no comparision.

You could have your DSL modded if you want to go that route. Just a thought.

I could go on. A lot of things can attribute to harshness as stated. Use a warm sounding guitar (USA Jackson with ebony for me) as maple can sound brighter. Use good quality cables and pick ups, etc.

Just my 1/2 cent worth. Good luck

do you own the reissue or the original 80's 800?
i think i might as well just sell the DSL and get the 800.. waddya guys think?
how bout the 800 with a hotplate in the bedroom? your ears doesnt necessarily need to bleed to get that tone right?

jason becker is simply outstanding!! do you know what marshall he used?

 

[spaceforlease]

forgot to ask: how much does a used 800 normal cost? (reissue and original)

thx again guys.

 

[RachelMorgan]

You can play with tubes. I've got a JVM. I found the tone with the stock preamp tubes on the grainy side. More so than I wanted. I found a couple Ei (pre Bosnia) 12AX7 long plates. I put one in the second gain slot. It helped brown the tone. I put a Telefunken long plate NOS in V1. It smoothed things out a lot.

You might also want to try one of the JJ 12DW7s in V1, or a 12AT7 there.

Please be advised that Marshall tones tend to be kind of strange. By themselves, I don't think they sound that great, but they do cut through a mix better than anything else. It is in the mix where they shine. You're not going to get the warm fuzzy tone out of a Marshall. Warm fuzzy sounds good in your studio, but in a gig setting where you need to cut through in a solo you want the Marshall bark.

I find it a good idea when ordering tubes to call the person selling them, like Bob @ Eurotubes for example, and discuss music rather than just the technical stuff. From your music choices and tonal descriptions he can come up with something that works. Tube differences are going to be subtle if any. Most of your sound changes will come from your EQ settings and your volume/gain/MV settings.

 

[billdncn]

do you own the reissue or the original 80's 800?
i think i might as well just sell the DSL and get the 800.. waddya guys think?
how bout the 800 with a hotplate in the bedroom? your ears doesnt necessarily need to bleed to get that tone right?

jason becker is simply outstanding!! do you know what marshall he used?

Reissue as stated. Now the 800's can be bright and a lot of people snip/replace bright caps, etc. I thought of having mine modded but with an EQ and the tonal selections of the TB Classic I'm pretty satisfied with the array tones I can get.
Jason used 800's and later switched to the 900 believe it or not. This info from Dennis at ProTone Pedals. They are working with JB as we speak on his signature pedal soon to be out.

 

[Brett Blackmore]

The JCM800 were very good as a basic amp but they had poor clean channels and needed a distortion pedal or an attenuator - the DSL is far superior and is ore flexable.

Even though I love the Schenker tone I would not sell my DSL for a JCM800.

Cheers Brett

 

[DragonSarc]

That's a bummer Dragon. You get the kit from Euro? Before throwing KT77's in there maybe you should give Bob a call and let him know what happened?

He may have some suggestions.

Good luck with that, keep us posted!

yeah I got them from Euro but that was like few months ago and i just got around of putting it in my amp but ill email him tomorrow and see.

 

[stock_hippie]

The JCM800 were very good as a basic amp but they had poor clean channels and needed a distortion pedal or an attenuator - the DSL is far superior and is ore flexable.

Even though I love the Schenker tone I would not sell my DSL for a JCM800.

Cheers Brett

cool stuff Brett...i live gig and need to keep the volume not really low but if they want me to play softer i got to accomodate...just depends...its always outdoors here in Hawaii so i get plenty of chances to amp up....good luck...your dsl 100 sounds rock and rolll!!!!

 

[steelhorse]

He may still have a few suggestions and recommend a different preamp tube or 2 that while they may not be free may really help smooth everything out for you!

 

[steelhorse]

cool stuff Brett...i live gig and need to keep the volume not really low but if they want me to play softer i got to accomodate...just depends...its always outdoors here in Hawaii so i get plenty of chances to amp up....good luck...your dsl 100 sounds rock and rolll!!!!

Trust me the DSL100 can get PLENTY loud!

I love my 900 also especially after the tube change.

Have fun gigging in the islands!

 

[bigragu63]

Hi spaceforlease,

The early JCM800 2203 and 2204, with their gigantic Drake transformers and simple circuit are capable of producing unmistakable, sparkling Marshall crunch. The vertical input models are sought after and draw a premium price because the pots are mounted on the chassis, rather than the PC board. This makes the PCB easily accessible for changing resistors and capacitors to customize gain and tone. Expect to pay around $1000.00 for one that's unmodded and in good condition. The lack of an effects loop and reverb on these models, which accounts for the simplicity of their circuits, may be a deciding factor for you, if you feel that you need them. It's also true that they don't really get the mojo going until they're pretty loud, so you'd either need a hotplate or a low wattage practice amp for the bedroom.

If you want the effects loop, but can live without reverb, then a RI might be for you. If you need clean and dirty channels, effects loop and reverb, then stick with the DSL100 and try some of the things others have suggested in this thread. There's been a ton of great advice in this thread! Trying an equalizer is an excellent suggestion. Checking and experimenting with bias settings might help. Tubes can make a huge difference, but it can cost a bundle to buy an assortment of power tubes to see if you like them or not. However, 12AX7's are relatively cheap, so you can afford to get variety of brands and audition them in the different positions.

Let us know how you make out.

 

[steelhorse]

Hi spaceforlease,

The early JCM800 2203 and 2204, with their gigantic Drake transformers and simple circuit are capable of producing unmistakable, sparkling Marshall crunch. The vertical input models are sought after and draw a premium price because the pots are mounted on the chassis, rather than the PC board. This makes the PCB easily accessible for changing resistors and capacitors to customize gain and tone. Expect to pay around $1000.00 for one that's unmodded and in good condition. The lack of an effects loop and reverb on these models, which accounts for the simplicity of their circuits, may be a deciding factor for you, if you feel that you need them. It's also true that they don't really get the mojo going until they're pretty loud, so you'd either need a hotplate or a low wattage practice amp for the bedroom.

If you want the effects loop, but can live without reverb, then a RI might be for you. If you need clean and dirty channels, effects loop and reverb, then stick with the DSL100 and try some of the things others have suggested in this thread. There's been a ton of great advice in this thread! Trying an equalizer is an excellent suggestion. Checking and experimenting with bias settings might help. Tubes can make a huge difference, but it can cost a bundle to buy an assortment of power tubes to see if you like them or not. However, 12AX7's are relatively cheap, so you can afford to get variety of brands and audition them in the different positions.

Let us know how you make out.

That's a great description of what to look for amp wise. I especially liked the info on the 800 so now if I ever do get one I'd know what I was looking for!

 

[bigragu63]

That's a great description of what to look for amp wise. I especially liked the info on the 800 so now if I ever do get one I'd know what I was looking for!

Thanks Steelhorse!

I guess you can tell, I'm a fan of the old 800's. I like the the 4010 and 4104 combos too. They both have exactly the same guts as the 50 watt model 2204 head, but in combo form. The 4010 is a 1x12 and the 4104 is a 2x12. The combos are handy for rehearsals and small venues, but they do the same job as the 2204 head when you plug one into a 4x12 cab. A surprising amount of volume from only 50 watts! Although the 4104 weighs about 85 lbs and can be a beast to lug up and down stairs!!!

 

[steelhorse]

One day I'll get an 800, especially now that I know what I'm looking for.

 

[spaceforlease]

Hi spaceforlease,

The early JCM800 2203 and 2204, with their gigantic Drake transformers and simple circuit are capable of producing unmistakable, sparkling Marshall crunch. The vertical input models are sought after and draw a premium price because the pots are mounted on the chassis, rather than the PC board. This makes the PCB easily accessible for changing resistors and capacitors to customize gain and tone. Expect to pay around $1000.00 for one that's unmodded and in good condition. The lack of an effects loop and reverb on these models, which accounts for the simplicity of their circuits, may be a deciding factor for you, if you feel that you need them. It's also true that they don't really get the mojo going until they're pretty loud, so you'd either need a hotplate or a low wattage practice amp for the bedroom.

If you want the effects loop, but can live without reverb, then a RI might be for you. If you need clean and dirty channels, effects loop and reverb, then stick with the DSL100 and try some of the things others have suggested in this thread. There's been a ton of great advice in this thread! Trying an equalizer is an excellent suggestion. Checking and experimenting with bias settings might help. Tubes can make a huge difference, but it can cost a bundle to buy an assortment of power tubes to see if you like them or not. However, 12AX7's are relatively cheap, so you can afford to get variety of brands and audition them in the different positions.

Let us know how you make out.

naah.. i dont really care bout the fx loops or the reverb.. and im planning on having a hotplate in front of it (if i get one).
also whats the difference between the reissue and the original? in terms of tone?
its all about the tone eh?

 

[steelhorse]

I think you meant to say to have the hotplate between the head and the cab right?

 

[bigragu63]

I think you meant to say to have the hotplate between the head and the cab right?

Yeah, for sure the Hotplate goes between the head and the cab.

I've never played a RI yet, so I couldn't offer a comparison. But now you've got me curious. I think I need to head to my local Marshall dealer and try one out this weekend! But that's a bad place for me... Like a kid in a candy store, I can't get out of there without buying something! I better leave my credit cards at home.