JVM and Boss NS-2 X pattern

[SteFowkes]

Well I tried it out, guitar NS2 Amp, did tone things down quite a bit but on the one riff of ours I had to find a sweet spot to stop the squeal on a stop riff. talking to a mate yesterday he only ever uses a gate in the loop and reckons there`s not much you can do with high gain amps in small areas and high volumes.

I also found that just muting at the bridge wasn't as successful in stopping feedback as when I muted at neck too.

looks like unless I make a line selector like Dooley says to run xpattern I`m kinda stuck with it. leaving the ns2 up front seems better idea than putting in the loop for only 2 modes. one being clean...

 

[SteFowkes]

Been speaking to my Mate and he`s put to bed my idea of cheating the head to be a mini switch system as I`m sacrificing too much for convienience. he uses modulation up front and ns2 and delay in loop with it on permanently.

If I were to try the x pattern with my chorus and flange out front would I put them in between send on ns2 and amp or before the ns 2?

or would I just be better off sticking the ns2 in loop with delay after it?

seems so easy hooking all this gear up on paper!!

 

[SteFowkes]

Had bit more of a mess around today, tried the modulation pedals in front and they are really noisy even with ns2 in loop they bring a lot. Decided to just run things like this:



Kills the power amp and pedal noise so will have only the tuner in front of the amp. Then fx send to ns2 in with chorus and flange in the send and return on ns2 with delay after ns2 to the return.

Hopefully it will help the squeal too.

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

Had bit more of a mess around today, tried the modulation pedals in front and they are really noisy even with ns2 in loop they bring a lot. Decided to just run things like this:



Kills the power amp and pedal noise so will have only the tuner in front of the amp. Then fx send to ns2 in with chorus and flange in the send and return on ns2 with delay after ns2 to the return.

Hopefully it will help the squeal too.

Not sure if you mentioned it, but have you ever run your effects pedals on batteries? I see you are using power supply box for at least some of your pedals. Using batteries might help cut down on the noise, though it might cost you. Diagnostically, batteries might also help you identify whether there is some group loop issue (I know you were thinking the same thing in a previous post, but I'm not sure if you checked for a group loop somewhere in your pedal chain. Have you tried removing all your pedals and then adding them back one a a time to see if you could spot the culprit? Have you tried rearranging the order of the pedals? How does the amp sound without any pedals at all? Doing some of these things might be time consuming, but they probably cost you little or no money.

Pedals have their own specs: some have buffers, some may or may not be "true bypass", some rob the signal strength at the output, etc. The way they interact with each other won't be known until you actually hook things up. I try to avoid using different pedals for different effects for those reasons as well as past experiences. Not sure what options you have available to you, but at least it's something to think about.

At this point, I'd say you are better served trying to find the offending pedal(s) and see how much quieter you sound can be. I'd hate for you to keep buying more noise gates/suppressors and still be unhappy.

Hope things work out for you. Keep your head up.

 

[iron broadsword]

Heh, I realized on Sunday while playing that I actually have my ns2 in the loop, not out front.. and I do now remember it getting put there because it worked better. Clearly I have the memory of a goldfish.

Your current setup seems to be the best solution for you, but try Motm's battery solution before you give up.

 

[SteFowkes]

Well I once more tried the x pattern, was lured in to a false sense of joy when the pedals and power circuit were considerably quiet. No proximity noise then i struck a note...

Man the squeal took half my ear drum out. Ive totally given up on that route.

I've again put pedals in front of amp for modulation. Traced a weird ticking kind of sound to my CE2 it was also was getting a mircophonic noise off the output. AThat was daisy chained off the NS2. Put a battery in that and it went. Need to try and mod it to take an isolated 9v supply. Pedal noise is bearable on clean tones but wild with any kind of gain. Now I've put modulation back in loop both are really quiet now. In honesty i only ever used modulation on clean tones anyway.

Also noticed the ce 2 didn't like being after the mistress so swapped them and helped a little.


Update: the Mistress works so much better in the loop so putting ce2 up front and running mistress through the ns2 loop.
The battle continues. Haha.

 

[iron broadsword]

Idk, this is weird. Have you tried swapping your PI tube? Maybe it is microphonic. Try that and swap whichever tube is in charge of fx loop recovery.

 

[SteFowkes]

The amp is 3 weeks old so aint messing with tubes. The squeal occurs on od orange at high volume with no loop. Once i get the signal chain right i wil look at the guitar end. hopefully with minimal noise the amp will deal with the hot bridge better. Unless there is a ground fault in the axe or something?

 

[iron broadsword]

Ok, instead of swapping tubes, turn the amp on and put it on OD and turn the guitar volume off, then using a pencil or something, tap on all the tubes. If you hear it coming out the speakers then it is a bad tube after all. They CAN go at any time.. even if it is weird.. first thing to check when a tube amp isn't making sense.

 

[SteFowkes]

Ahh ok! Think its more a set up issue to be honest. I'm totally new to valve amps and building pedal boards so its most likely a user error or a guitar fault now.

what i have noticed at low volume. The Ns2 colours my overdrive tone considerably. Is that normal? Can't see how it sounds cranked really till sunday. Not overly keen on that.

 

[Pat6969]

Let me tell you that it really is a simple fix! I am a high gain junky!! I run my guitar into an MXR Smart gate, from there I run into the ISP G-String guitar in, guitar out to amp input. Then I run from FX send to DEC in, through all my mod pedal and then DEC out to FX return. I had a JVM 210H and now a Dual Rec, in both cases there was absolute zero noise even at high volumes while practicing in my buddies garage. Because the Smart Gate is pinching off the input noise and the G-String is monitoring that signal, staccato "chugging" sounded deadly with the gate immediately closing after the "chug". My notes have an adequate amount of sustain as well because of this set up. I must say I did try the NS2 and it was nowhere close to as good a the ISP. If you want to kill amp noise you will have to spend a few bucks, simple.

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

Well I once more tried the x pattern, was lured in to a false sense of joy when the pedals and power circuit were considerably quiet. No proximity noise then i struck a note...

Man the squeal took half my ear drum out. Ive totally given up on that route.

I've again put pedals in front of amp for modulation. Traced a weird ticking kind of sound to my CE2 it was also was getting a mircophonic noise off the output. AThat was daisy chained off the NS2. Put a battery in that and it went. Need to try and mod it to take an isolated 9v supply. Pedal noise is bearable on clean tones but wild with any kind of gain. Now I've put modulation back in loop both are really quiet now. In honesty i only ever used modulation on clean tones anyway.

Also noticed the ce 2 didn't like being after the mistress so swapped them and helped a little.


Update: the Mistress works so much better in the loop so putting ce2 up front and running mistress through the ns2 loop.
The battle continues. Haha.

I agree with you to not use the so-called X-pattern on the NS-2-in your case it looks like it's more trouble than it's worth.

If your CE2 is making a "ticking" noise, then maybe there is something wrong with the CE2. Try taking it out completely and see if things improve. It might just be that there is something wrong with the CE2 which is screwing up everything else. Quick, easy, not risky, and it won't cost you any money to try this.

One thing I've never seen you comment was your settings. For the channels/modes on the JVM, what are your channel volume, channel gain, and master volume settings? I'm wondering if your settings might be a little too high for some of the channels/modes you are using. Without knowing your settings, I can offer this: using too much gain and too much volume (either channel volume or master volume) will almost certainly cause lots of problems with noise and nasty feedback. With high gain amps, it's best to try to find a balance between your gain, channel volume, and master volume. Little issues become magnified and almost uncontrollable when using high gain settings and high volume settings. Even when all your equipment is in top maintenance, all high gain amps produce at least some noise sometimes. Even Randall Smith of Mesa Boogie (as well as other amp designers) attests to this basic statement in almost all of his amp manuals. It's nice to have all that gain, but it's just counterproductive to use a lot of gain sometimes. Again, I don't know your settings, but that's just my extra bit. You can have high volumes, but keep the gain down, or you can have high gain, but keep the volumes down, in general.

Also make sure you're using good leads/cables throughout your signal chain. It's totally worth it to spend a little bit of money on quality cables. Again, I'm not sure what you're using, but it's something to look into. And remember, strictly speaker cables for connecting the amp to a cabinet, strictly MIDI cables for MIDI devices, and instrument cables for everything else.

Finally, I suggest taking all your pedals out of the signal and try playing with just the guitar and amp. If you are having problems with noise, then it could be something easier to find, such as faulty electronics in the guitar, bad instrument cable/lead, amp settings, or maybe a microphonic preamp tube. I now you said your amp isn't too old, but preamp tubes can take a dump at any time. If you bought your amp used, I highly suggest you replace ALL of your tubes (both preamp and power amp tubes); yes, it's expensive, but you also don't know how those tubes have been treated in the past. Now, if you bought your amp new, but it was a floor model/demo model, I also suggest you immediately remove ALL the tubes. Floor model/demo amps usually take a helluva beating every damn day by some of the most careless, most ignorant people. It sounds extreme changing all the tubes, but I just wouldn't take the chance of leaving a preamp or power amp tube in a used amp or floor model/demo model amp because sometimes when a tube malfunctions, it can take out something more expensive than just the tube itself or a little fuse.

Work safely and deliberately/safely. And I suggest not buying anymore pedals until you got a better handle on the noise issues you currently have.

Good luck with your sound.

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

Let me tell you that it really is a simple fix! I am a high gain junky!! I run my guitar into an MXR Smart gate, from there I run into the ISP G-String guitar in, guitar out to amp input. Then I run from FX send to DEC in, through all my mod pedal and then DEC out to FX return. I had a JVM 210H and now a Dual Rec, in both cases there was absolute zero noise even at high volumes while practicing in my buddies garage. Because the Smart Gate is pinching off the input noise and the G-String is monitoring that signal, staccato "chugging" sounded deadly with the gate immediately closing after the "chug". My notes have an adequate amount of sustain as well because of this set up. I must say I did try the NS2 and it was nowhere close to as good a the ISP. If you want to kill amp noise you will have to spend a few bucks, simple.

At this point, the OP really needs to work on understanding and getting a better handle on the noise issues he currently has rather than get another pedal to kill the noise. Working with what he has now will teach him a lot about controlling the signal, settings, pedal placement in the signal chain, etc. It's pretty clear that the issues he is experiencing will take some time, but it will be worth it, so I think he needs to spend time doing some research/investigating his gear rather than spending time trying out other pedals. His issues might not be your issues, and so he kinda needs to put in some work with the gear he has now and make some decisions.

No hard feelings or ill will.

 

[Pat6969]

At this point, the OP really needs to work on understanding and getting a better handle on the noise issues he currently has rather than get another pedal to kill the noise. Working with what he has now will teach him a lot about controlling the signal, settings, pedal placement in the signal chain, etc. It's pretty clear that the issues he is experiencing will take some time, but it will be worth it, so I think he needs to spend time doing some research/investigating his gear rather than spending time trying out other pedals. His issues might not be your issues, and so he kinda needs to put in some work with the gear he has now and make some decisions.

No hard feelings or ill will.

I fully understand where you are coming from. I'm just saying I had a JVM210H and the OD1 and OD2 are noisy as hell with no other pedals in the chain. If he sets up the Smart Gate and G-String 2 as I described, the noise would be controlled fully. That`s all, that simple. No ill will taken!

 

[SteFowkes]

That's it no more pedals going in now, I love a bit of chorus on a clean tone, I'm a huge machine head and dave gilmore fan so the mistress flange was a kind of guilty pleasure buy. Delay is a must so thats all i want. Hate wah pedals with a passion, would never use a phaser really, so I'm done with pedals. Maybe an overdrive in future??? This is the board now.

Using all decent cable, Cordial custom length patch cables. Isloated power supply, fender speaker cable. Tested the cables with my multimeter. Waiting on 3 more planet waves cables to go to amp input and to and from loop.

Moved the chorus and daisy chained the power off tuner. Ticking has gone and works fine. The mistress was far to noisy up front but great in the loop. Another thing making me think guitar is a suspect. As for settings, this is roughly what volumes and gain are at during rehearsal.


the amp is brand new and definitely not a store demo. Think i need to check my guitar wiring thoroughly.

 

[Pat6969]

That's it no more pedals going in now, I love a bit of chorus on a clean tone, I'm a huge machine head and dave gilmore fan so the mistress flange was a kind of guilty pleasure buy. Delay is a must so thats all i want. Hate wah pedals with a passion, would never use a phaser really, so I'm done with pedals. Maybe an overdrive in future??? This is the board now.

Using all decent cable, Cordial custom length patch cables. Isloated power supply, fender speaker cable. Tested the cables with my multimeter. Waiting on 3 more planet waves cables to go to amp input and to and from loop.

Moved the chorus and daisy chained the power off tuner. Ticking has gone and works fine. The mistress was far to noisy up front but great in the loop. Another thing making me think guitar is a suspect. As for settings, this is roughly what volumes and gain are at during rehearsal.


the amp is brand new and definitely not a store demo. Think i need to check my guitar wiring thoroughly.

Lol! Or do what I said.

 

[SteFowkes]

Lol! Or do what I said.

It's an option yes but must be something I'm doing wrong to be getting this problem? Would rather be sure its nothing simple I've done incorrectly before throwing another 300 quid on noise gates. Maybe i do need them and i haven't discarded your input dude. But when my mate runs a similar rig with no problems and people on here are cranking theirs with no issue using one gate there must be something up. Replacing the ns2 with another 2 gates is my last port of call dude.

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

That's it no more pedals going in now, I love a bit of chorus on a clean tone, I'm a huge machine head and dave gilmore fan so the mistress flange was a kind of guilty pleasure buy. Delay is a must so thats all i want. Hate wah pedals with a passion, would never use a phaser really, so I'm done with pedals. Maybe an overdrive in future??? This is the board now.

Using all decent cable, Cordial custom length patch cables. Isloated power supply, fender speaker cable. Tested the cables with my multimeter. Waiting on 3 more planet waves cables to go to amp input and to and from loop.

Moved the chorus and daisy chained the power off tuner. Ticking has gone and works fine. The mistress was far to noisy up front but great in the loop. Another thing making me think guitar is a suspect. As for settings, this is roughly what volumes and gain are at during rehearsal.


the amp is brand new and definitely not a store demo. Think i need to check my guitar wiring thoroughly.

Though you know the specific history of your gear better than I do, there are three pedals on that board that have a good reputation and that I either own or have use myself: Boss Chromatic tunner, Boss Chorus, NS-2, and TC Electronic Flashback. Of those four, I can say those they are usually well-made pedals that usually are not particularly noisy imo or in the opinions of those I have talked to about such pieces. I haven't used, owned, or heard someone use the Mistress yet, so only you can know for certain at this point. Most pedals will introduce some noise, but are pretty good keeping things quiet especially when running on batteries though buying a lot of batteries is expensive and not something I personally look forward to.

You amp settings don't look too extreme, really. There is a little glare on MV1 knob and MV2 knob, but your channel volumes appear to be at the 12 o'clock position and your MVs look to be around the same, but correct me I'm wrong. The gain control also look pretty good in relation to where you have your channel volumes and master volumes. So now, I don't think your settings are extreme from my experience with the JVM amps.

You are now turning your attention to the wiring of the guitar, which I would say is a smart move. And since you say your friend runs a similar rig with no issues, I'm sure you'll work things out just find. But I can tell you one thing-I bet you are learning a lot through this experience. When you finally get things ironed out, I'm more than sure you'll be good at troubleshooting many issues with gear.

Good luck with your rig and keep us posted. Maybe when things get all worked out you can post a few audio clips. Best of luck.

 

[Pat6969]

It's an option yes but must be something I'm doing wrong to be getting this problem? Would rather be sure its nothing simple I've done incorrectly before throwing another 300 quid on noise gates. Maybe i do need them and i haven't discarded your input dude. But when my mate runs a similar rig with no problems and people on here are cranking theirs with no issue using one gate there must be something up. Replacing the ns2 with another 2 gates is my last port of call dude.

I reread my post and I may have come across as insensitive, sorry. I really don't think you can get away with one noise gate if you are using passive pickups, you need to tame them up front and then tame the loop noise. The reason I suggest the ISP is because it will use the guitar signal to gate the loop. If the noise is loud enough(and the JVM is) in the loop a simple gate like a Smart Gate won't close, you need to trigger it to close. I am telling you all of this assuming you want that dead silence like Periphery and Thousand Foot Crutch get, forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

I went over your posts in this thread as well as the questions and solutions other contributed, but there is one missing that we all haven't asked nor have seen you mention: what setting are you using for the effects level on the back of the JVM? -10dBV or +4dBu are your only two choices on the back of all JVM series amps. For the specific pedals you are using, a setting of -10dBV would be advised. If you already have your effects level at -10dBV, then you are right where you need to be in that respect. Again, good luck.