Lead Tone Not Cutting Through The Mix, Advice Please

[nobbydog]

OK so being new to the whole band experience I'm learning every week about my tone, how it forms part of the overall mix etc etc. However I just cant get something easy to set up (and leave until needed) for my lead breaks. So, 602 with the crunch channel set around 3/4 and the lead set at max. I figure that when I hit the lead channel it would give me the boost needed to cut through. Yes its 'louder' but doesent seem to stand out somehow.

Am I getting tied in a knot over nothing or is there something on the amp I'm not quite setting up correctly.

Any advice/experience welcome - just thought this would be a good place to throw it out there. And if its just a case of goin louder then so be it (really, not a problem - loud is, of course, good! )

 

[Georgiatec]

You could try boosting the mids a little with the EQ if that is possible on the 602....I presume you mean the JCM 2000 TSL not the JCM 600 or JTM 60, which also had the same model number for the 2 x 12 combo?
It is also dependant on the overall volume of the band. If you are all playing very loud in an enclosed rehearsal space sometimes it becomes impossible to detect "louder". If you are new to being in a band, the rehearsal volume is the single most important thing that 99% of guitar bands get wrong. Make sure you have a good balance and can hear everything properly to start with. If you are going home with your ears ringing, then you are too loud.

 

[nobbydog]

Thanks exactly the sort of advice I need, thanks. Yes its the TSL602 + extension cab gets me up to 4x12. I even replaced the wolverines with V30's a few months ago to brighten things up which is fine, rhythm tones are classic Marshall when I get over 5 on the dial. Just want t resist going louder and louder to try and get my leads heard. How do others practice, do you set up as in a gig situation ie. all the gear behind you? I think one issue is we still set up our cabs beside each of us facing into the room, so maybe the other guitarists is hearing my leads ok and I'm hearing his sound coming straight at me? Feel free to keep the newbie advice coming. Thanks again.

 

[dreyn77]

Marshall has worked the solo section for you already, so the audience is hearing you, but you on stage are getting a bad version.
The theory for the solo section is, the sound is in a zone where the other instruments can't make their sounds. They've also added the extra notes to the sound so it appears as if your sound is 'sustaining' for a much longer time.

If somebody comes out of the audience and says to you they couldn't hear that solo, then look into the amps adjustment.
If I listen to Michael Schenker live on DVD, I can't hear the 2nd guitarist in the mix at all. No sound from his dsl amps at all.

 

[nobbydog]

OK so I need to trust the lead channel to do its thing. I get what you are saying, so would setting up the cabs and PA in a live arrangement help show how well balanced the mix really is? I just cant see how standing next to your own speaker facing everyone else can help. Of course we will try it next week, but grateful for all you experienced players to share your knowledge.

 

[royslead]

I would suggest instead, and if space permits, putting the amps along a wall facing you, or in a side wash arrangement. Anything you can do so the sound comes toward you. Also, having previously owned a TSL 602, turn your gain (drive) on the lead channel down, and the volume up. Turning up the drive all the way, will make the sound seemingly thinner. Boost your mid section slightly. If you are new to playing with others, chances are you love the sound of scooped mids. It doesn't work in a band, if the mids are scooped for your lead tone. The shared eq between the crunch and lead is part of why I sold mine. There are other things you can do with pedals or an eq in the lopp (that's my favorite trick). Chances are, you may have to adjust the amp to settings you really don't like playing alone; but it may sound good with the rest of the group.

 

[jack daniels]

Placement of the amp further back, further forwards. Use of an amp stand (if it's a combo). Various micing placement. Try turning your mids treble and presence similarly (around 6 -7) and your bass (around 4). Ayan Smooth and Slim passive filter.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

You can't judge a boost by practicing by yourself. You need a substantial boost, in most cases, live w/ a band. (especially, if there's a rhythm guitar).

On the TSL, they also made a single channel boost, by using the effects loop dry. Put a jumper cable in the loop & turn the effects volume up. The more you turn it up, the more volume you lose. Then, disengage the loop for your boost...

 

[30watt]

OP, are you mic'd? If your amp is running through the PA, then you have to trust the sound guy.

If not, ask an audience member you know and trust.

Where's your amp? Pointing at your knees, or your ears?

 

[EndGame00]

Boost the mids on your OD pedal, or if you use an EQ pedal, do the same thing.VFE Focus pedal has two mid cut control (high and low), which helps tweak the upper midrange of your tone. My experience is I use more upper mids for lead solos in order to go over band mix, especially if a band has two guitar players.

 

[jack daniels]

Boost the mids on your OD pedal, or if you use an EQ pedal, do the same thing.VFE Focus pedal has two mid cut control (high and low), which helps tweak the upper midrange of your tone. My experience is I use more upper mids for lead solos in order to go over band mix, especially if a band has two guitar players.

The mids are where rock and roll lives. I fervently utilize my mid boost switch on my Keeley Boss Blues Driver BD-2 which provides excellent mid boost and tone shaping functionality. By using the full-range 'tone' knob, greater 'transparency' can be had. Upper mids, lower mids, I use em' all. All of dem notes, dem notes cha cha cha. (In my best Jimmy Durante voice)

In all seriousness however, I'm not a fan of 'scooped mids' like Fender CS 69' strat pickups that are scooped, notched, or have mid loss (unless wound to compensate). Certain P.A.F. humbuckers have a 'scooped' sound as well. Musicians like Jimi Hendrix compensated by using his equipment, tubes, speakers, effects, etc., to compensate for the scooped mids in his 69' strat pups.

I had a pair of 69' strat pups wound (by The Pickup Wizard Ontario Canada) to around 6.0K Ohms with a more mid forward flavor. The EQ is very balanced from low-mid-high frequencies. Just like Fender's 69's only w/no scoop. Very clean and articulate. Could it possibly be the PE wire and the tumbled A5 magnets?

Where's your amp? Pointing at your knees, or your ears?

Good point as Gary Moore once pointed out when asked about the classic Marshall stack configuration. Gary said that a slant front "A" cabinet behind his head would blare in his ears and the volume would also tend to cause feedback through his vocal stage mic. Gary would typically set up his 4x12" cabinets side-by-side on stage to avert these issues.

 

[EndGame00]

The mids are where rock and roll lives. I fervently utilize my mid boost switch on my Keeley Boss Blues Driver BD-2 which provides excellent mid boost and tone shaping functionality. By using the full-range 'tone' knob, greater 'transparency' can be had. Upper mids, lower mids, I use em' all. All of dem notes, dem notes cha cha cha. (In my best Jimmy Durante voice)

In all seriousness however, I'm not a fan of 'scooped mids' like Fender CS 69' strat pickups that are scooped, notched, or have mid loss (unless wound to compensate). Certain P.A.F. humbuckers have a 'scooped' sound as well. Musicians like Jimi Hendrix compensated by using his equipment, tubes, speakers, effects, etc., to compensate for the scooped mids in his 69' strat pups.

I had a pair of 69' strat pups wound (by The Pickup Wizard Ontario Canada) to around 6.0K Ohms with a more mid forward flavor. The EQ is very balanced from low-mid-high frequencies. Just like Fender's 69's only w/no scoop. Very clean and articulate. Could it possibly be the PE wire and the tumbled A5 magnets?



Good point as Gary Moore once pointed out when asked about the classic Marshall stack configuration. Gary said that a slant front "A" cabinet behind his head would blare in his ears and the volume would also tend to cause feedback through his vocal stage mic. Gary would typically set up his 4x12" cabinets side-by-side on stage to avert these issues.

That's what found out in my early years gigging. I used to hate having mids so I scooped it out, then when I had to play lead solos, I couldn't hear my solos over the band. Thinking cranking the gain/drive on my pedal to max will helped it, boy I was wrong. My former guitar mentor showed me his setting and made his point across that I do need the bumped up the mids and lower the gain at 2 on the knob.

 

[EndGame00]

Or you can also use your wah pedal as a lead boost, a la Michael Schenker. Set it on half-cocked.

 

[30watt]

Lead breaks and solos are vocal replacement...think of the vocal range (slightly augmented at each end, although Walk This Way does get to the high E on the 1st string) and then let the solos sit where the vox were in the mix.

Band playing isn't a competition. Grateful Dead tried with with each player having his own PA behind him, and they just all ended up at 10. Music creation is about playing together, and the guitar (shock horror!!) sometimes needs to sit back in the mix. That way, when you do play a killer lead break, everyone goes "wow!". Otherwise you sound like Santana, where everyone wants to say "Shut the @#%$ up for a few bars, old man!!"

 

[blues_n_cues]

EQ or clean boost in the loop?

 

[nobbydog]

Looks like the mids is where its at then. To answer the earlier question I play with my 602 stacked on top of another matching 2x12 so the 602 itself sits about chest height. I'll also try the effects loop trick too. As one person mentioned above the 602 shares the eq section between crunch and lead channels so max'ing out the mids for the lead wont work as they will still be max'ed out when I switch back to the crunch channel for rhythm. I should also have mentioned that there is another guitar in the band mix playing rhythm so thats probably what I'm trying to compete with. We have some quick learning to do!

 

[nobbydog]

By the way thanks everyone for all the help so far.

 

[EndGame00]

Take KingDiamond/Mercyful Fate albums, for example.. You can hear the guitar front and center because their tone has plenty of mid frequency.

 

[jack daniels]

That's what found out in my early years gigging. I used to hate having mids so I scooped it out, then when I had to play lead solos, I couldn't hear my solos over the band. Thinking cranking the gain/drive on my pedal to max will helped it, boy I was wrong. My former guitar mentor showed me his setting and made his point across that I do need the bumped up the mids and lower the gain at 2 on the knob.

Isn't it a trend by many of todays heavy metal guys to notch out the mids? I can't understand it myself but whatever floats their boat I guess. I was reading something that Catalinbread or Henry Yee (chief designer @ Catalinbread) said about using their 'foundation' pedals. The comment was to start your amp EQ at Treble-6 to 7 Mid-6 to 7 and Bass- 4 to 5. I started doing this with my amps and found that WOW, I don't have to tweak very much (if any) afterwards, even when using an OD pedal. Foundation pedals typically are designed around the front-end of some famous amp model, so that when you use another amp you can flavor your tonal response to sound more like what the foundation pedal is modeled after.

 

[Jrocker]

I have always said it's dynamics. I was in a band many years ago that had a PA but no monitors. We were foreced to come down in volume for vocals and guitar solos in order to hear them. We learnex that when we rehearsed that way we would also play live that way making it real easy for soundmen in clubs that had their own PA systems to mix us therefore we almost always had a great mix where everyone could hear each other which really helped with vocals and harmonies not to mention guitar solos. So I would suggest trying to rehearse at lower volumes. Like someone said, if your ears are ringing after a rehearsal or gig then you were all playing too loud.