Marshall Origin 20 and Fender Strat sounds thin...

[5TIMBO]

OK.

I'm approaching this from a different angle.

What pickups...how high are they in the pickguard, what string gauge, and what amp setup were you playing before?

EDIT- wait a minute..amp sounds fine with pedal off? But not with pedal on?

If so, answer is obvious.

FWIW- I hated the BE-OD, couldn't sent it back fast enough.

Really? It's my go to. Especially with the origin. Although, I don't own a single single coil. Les pauls and humbuckers so could be bit of a discrepancy.

 

[gregr]

I have some good info for you @Skunkstank

Those Friedman pedals are "amps in a box". Well Friedman takes his Marshalls very seriously as we all know. From what I can tell he has a bright cap on the volume knob of the pedal just like on a real amp. So if you are running the volume knob on the BEOD below about 2-3pm it is going to sound thin. period. That is the secret. When you run the master volume low on a real vintage Marshall it will usually sound thin as well.

Try setting all knobs on that pedal around 2-3pm to start and then adjust bass and treble to taste from there. I absolutely could not get a full sound out of his pedals with the volume on it low no matter how much tweaking I did. It was just missing something.

I would hold off on messing with pickups, tubes, unless there is an actual problem that needs to be solved. Like defective tubes or just really horrible pickups. You shouldn't need multiple pedals.

As a test, you can do the same thing with the origin. Just plug in straight from the guitar to the amp, put all the knobs on the amp around 2-3pm and you should be good to go. Volume is a side effect of tone haha Put both volume and tone knobs of your guitar about 3/4 of the way up. So if the knobs goto 10, set them on 7. That will help too. I'm not specifically familiar with the Origin 20, but if it has a bright cap on the master volume, having that set at 2-3pm would help significantly I would imagine.

Neither the BE-100 nor the BE-OD have a bright cap.

 

[jeffb]

Really? It's my go to. Especially with the origin. Although, I don't own a single single coil. Les pauls and humbuckers so could be bit of a discrepancy.

We all like different things! Glad it works out for you.

I prefer quite a few Marshall in a Box pedals over the Friedman pedals I've had (DS, BE). I used them with my DSL/Class5/ORI20 and even an Orange OR15 and H&K TM18- all through 2x12 cabs. IME Friedman amp in a box pedals don't do edge of breakup crunch very well *, and they are overly compressed and fizzy. I hate excess compression. I've not tried the small box pedal yet.

But I love some of the guy's amps- especially the Phil X model. I'll have one on order the day I win the Lotto! That thing is righteous.

FWIW- Les Pauls w/ humbuckers are all I play.

Edit * I'm aware of the internal trim pot. It's a tone/timbre thing, not a pure amount of gain thing.

 

[C-Grin]

I have a Strat with Cool Rails which is a "side by side, hum canceling single coil size" pickup which works really well. Also I wired it with a push pull pot and get series and parallel functions. I prefer parallel vs dropping a coil for 2 reasons, it is still hum cancelling and the volume drop off is much less. But still has some single coil-ish-ness to it. I had the hot rails but it was too hot for me.

 

[gregr]

I don’t have the BE Deluxe but I own the other three Friedman amp in a box pedals. Two thumbs up on the Smallbox. I’ve tried a few MIAB pedals and my search ended with that one. It’s still fairly compressed though. It might be because it uses soft clipping.

 

[Skunkstank]

Start with some cheapish jj tubes or something, ecc83's, because everytime you have a problem with your amp the first question always asked is, did you try rolling the tubes.
Keep your old ones and label them so you can always try swapping out tubes when you have a problem to eliminate that possible cause.

Oh, I haven't touched the tubes at all. It'll be a while before I get around to messing with them, I'm pretty sure haha.

 

[Skunkstank]

Maybe. Doesn't the BE-OD have adjustments inside the pedal? Try em.

Roll your tone knob back. See if that renders a thicker tone.

Put volume around 3pm and gain. This amp takes off when powered up right.

There is 4 pages here. I'm not reading them. SC's are always gonna be bitey. Ways to compensate though. To a degree.

Yes, there has been a ton of input here. I need to try them and see what works. Also, I did play around with the trim pot but it didn't help much, sadly.

 

[Skunkstank]

I'm not a fan, but I've played them in a few guitars. And I put a set in my Son's Strat at his request for something "really heavy". The Strat was routed vintage style SSS only, so I didn't have a lot of options.

They are a very high output single coil size humbucker. Dave Murray of Iron Maiden has been using them for a lot of years. I find the HR really hot, bland, muddy when rolling your volumes off, and super compressed. My Son plays stuff like Blink 182 and other bands I've never heard of or can recall. Lots of gain, lower tunings, etc. and he really liked the Hot Rails... until I gave him a Les Paul. Now not so much

I have a Squier strat, got it for really cheap, but it plays real nice. I wanted to swap the bridge with a hot rails for higher gains... unless someone gets me a Les Paul

 

[Skunkstank]

Here is a clip of a Squire Strat with a JBjr in the bridge, and my Origin 50H, and SD1

That sounds goood!

 

[GregM]

I have a Squier strat, got it for really cheap, but it plays real nice. I wanted to swap the bridge with a hot rails for higher gains... unless someone gets me a Les Paul

A Les paul you say??? Omg you just won't fit it here at all sorry

 

[Skunkstank]

boss GE7 in some form of a V shape?

also I have an American strat that I put lace sensors in when I was young. It was the same combination that was in the Strat ultra at that time: Blue Silver Red (nmb). Now a stock strat’s neck pickup sounds thin to me also. Personally I like that setup but I’m sure a purist would chide me.
Also, the red in the bridge is obnoxiously high output. I’ll eventually go blue, silver blue

I will be trying one of the equalizers since a lot of guys seems to find it helps with my problem. Will keep the V in mind!

 

[Skunkstank]

Weak noisy pickup combined with low input gain on that amp = whimpy tone! Hotrail or any mid to high output single size humbucker pickup is the cheapest easiest way to go. Any pedals will just increase the noise floor. Trust me. And if you are a young player, swapping out the tubes will not make a discernable difference! You likely don't have the luxury of dimeing the amp either.

You guessed right with my situation. At this point, I might just get another guitar with a humbucker.

 

[Skunkstank]

I've not read the whole thread and I've zero experience with the Origin but did someone else mention the influence of cable capacitance with single coils?

I'll impudently quote myself quoting Cesar Diaz: https://www.marshallforum.com/threads/instrument-cables.121653/page-4#post-2158369

Anyway: some famous Single coil players from yesteryears did not sound thin, even once plugged through "treble boosters"; one of the reasons behind was the high "stray capacitance" of their long and / or coily cables.

But one doesn't need to buy cumbersome coily or long cables to get this effect: putting a small capacitor between the hot and ground of a normal cable will do the same thing... knowing that a capacitor costs a few cents (and is easy to mount then to pull off).

Albeit I've discovered this stuff by myself decades ago, the idea doesn't come from me. Read the third paragraph from the bottom there:

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm

In my main Strat, I've a switchable 1nF cap from hot to ground for middy tones. I've also a "cable capacitance emulator" paired with my pedalboard for Marshall and that I can use with my other single coils guitars : it's a home made box with a rotary switch + an array of caps mimicing the sound softening (or brightening) effect due to different lenghts of cable...

FWIW. Not a panacea but a parameter to take in account.

EDIT - Here is a link that I use to share when I evoke such things:

The thing is I have been using a long coily cable and that didnt seem to help, but this is some great info right here!

 

[Skunkstank]

Check out the Euge Valovirta be-od demo on YouTube. It’s very important that the internal trim pot be dialed back to 8 to 10 o’clock. I would start at 8 o’clock. There are a lot of other reviews on this pedal that say the same.
Completely changes the pedal.

Ah, I wasn't aware of this. I will definitely try it, thanks!

 

[Skunkstank]

I have some good info for you @Skunkstank

Those Friedman pedals are "amps in a box". Well Friedman takes his Marshalls very seriously as we all know. From what I can tell he has a bright cap on the volume knob of the pedal just like on a real amp. So if you are running the volume knob on the BEOD below about 2-3pm it is going to sound thin. period. That is the secret. When you run the master volume low on a real vintage Marshall it will usually sound thin as well.

Try setting all knobs on that pedal around 2-3pm to start and then adjust bass and treble to taste from there. I absolutely could not get a full sound out of his pedals with the volume on it low no matter how much tweaking I did. It was just missing something.

I would hold off on messing with pickups, tubes, unless there is an actual problem that needs to be solved. Like defective tubes or just really horrible pickups. You shouldn't need multiple pedals.

As a test, you can do the same thing with the origin. Just plug in straight from the guitar to the amp, put all the knobs on the amp around 2-3pm and you should be good to go. Volume is a side effect of tone haha Put both volume and tone knobs of your guitar about 3/4 of the way up. So if the knobs goto 10, set them on 7. That will help too. I'm not specifically familiar with the Origin 20, but if it has a bright cap on the master volume, having that set at 2-3pm would help significantly I would imagine.

Wow, I never really thought about the volume knob on the pedal. I am usually quite low on the pedal volume. Gotta add this to my list of things to try Thanks!

 

[Skunkstank]

That being said, I don't think adding pedals is the answer here. Get your current gear figured out first and then you'll know what to do. Getting more variables in line is really gonna make your like more frustrating and confusing.

This makes a lot of sense to me as an amateur. Great advice again, thanks

 

[Mitchell Pearrow]

That sounds goood!

I thank you my friend ..
Cheers

 

[jeffb]

I have a Squier strat, got it for really cheap, but it plays real nice. I wanted to swap the bridge with a hot rails for higher gains... unless someone gets me a Les Paul

Well, let me know when you graduate HS with an A average, and we'll talk

 

[Skunkstank]

Well, let me know when you graduate HS with an A average, and we'll talk

 

[freefrog]

The thing is I have been using a long coily cable and that didnt seem to help, but this is some great info right here!

Yep, as I said, "it's not a panacea".

If we want a coily cable to make single coils smoother sounding, we need to be sure that...
a)it has actually a high capacitance (it's not systematically the case),
b)it doesn't align the resonant frequency of pickups with a frequential peak of the loudspeaker(s) used - in which case the higher capacitance can make the problem worse (!)...

All that being said: have you tried an EHX Linear Power Booster? I've several of these things here (including some clones that I've built myself: it's a super simple circuit). I'm pretty sure it was a secret weapon used by "some" famous Strat players with Marshall amps back in the day. And it's a cheap pedal... FWIW.

FOOTNOTE - If ever you go for "single coil sized humbuckers": a Hot Rails in parallel gives a decent approximation of single coil tone. A Cool Rails in parallel is even more convincing for that. Reason why one of my main stage guitars has Hot Rails in bridge position, Cool Rails (bridge model) in neck position AND series/parallel switches: it makes this axe one of the most versatile in my stable... albeit I've no problems to obtain a thick sound from other instruments with regular single coils plugged in a Marshall: I just adapt my rig and settings accordingly. YMMV.