New 1959HW vs my 1969 JMP - equally good built quality?

[LPman]

Update: I drove out today and grabbed the '79 2203, I needed an amp. I was able to trade-in a guitar that was a monkey on my back for a long time so I paid less than 1K in cash. Amp's all original. I can probably sell it with a little profit if I want to but the amp seems to be promising.

Here are my impressions. It is right in between a mid '80s JCM 800 and my '69 JMP 50 in tone and feel. It's not as dry and stiff as those 800 amps but not as sweet and singing as my '69. The master makes no sense on the amp, it starts to sound like a proper JMP with the vol at noon but that's expected. There was a stock '73 JMP 50 at the guys' place, now that amp sounded exactly as my '69. Endless sustain, more give, less stiffness, dirtier, meaner yet sweeter in the high-end. I honestly don't know how the master was exactly implemented on my amp but it didn't sound like a 2204, it had the proper plexi sound. I think I'm gonna change the lego caps to nos Mustards in the '79, maybe even the ditch the master and turn it into a high channel plexi or maybe not, we'll see. I never play on low vol.

One thing is sure, it's a loud mofo. It's much more vintage sounding than my stiff and dry '80s JCM 800s (I ditched them all) so it's a great amp. I'll probably experiment a little how to get it closer to my beloved '69. Interesting that the master was actually useful on that amp but it went into real jackhammer mode the same way with the master at noon. This '79 got the same thumping low-end percussivity, maybe even heavier.

I'm more or less staisfied for now. Will post some pics of the interior and ask around here what small changes should I make. I suspect the plate voltage to be in the ballpark of 480-500 VDC because it's the rare 4 speaker output model with no voltage selector so it's always at 220V and the wall voltage is 230V. I may decrease the preamp voltage by playing with dropping resistor values and so on.

 

[LPman]

My simple little DIY attenuator got so hot on the highest setting (minimal attenuation) after playing only half an hour with the master on 7 that I could have made a BBQ party. I'm scared shitless to dime this head on my Greenback halfstack. I have to build a fan into the attenuator or pull out 2 tubes. I'm used to insane volumes but never heard an amp this loud. I'm hearing white noise in my brain right now and I left the studio an hour ago.

 

[LPman]

Going to be really honest here. Maybe too honest for (some people) in the room.

I love a good classic Marshall. The classic models from the JTM and JMP eras most of all. The amps from the 60s, and into the 70s.

The 1959HW is very close to a 1959 in terms of mechanical build quality. It is MECHANICALLY almost identical to an early 70s Superlead. Aside from the power inlet and impedance and volume selectors.

I own/have owned multiple Superlead and 2203s. And a few more modern Marshalls, but actually fewer than the number of Superleads I've owned. Yes, the 1959s all sound better than the 2203s but the 2203s are quite good in their own right, plus their ability to deliver their best tone at a less than lethal volume level is valuable.

I've rebuilt a few JMPs, and in one case it's really pretty honest for me to say that I built a replica of a '69 Plexi in a butchered, then repaired, original '69 Plexi chassis using its original perf board. Truly it is the Amp Of Theseus. That amp sounds fantastic, and in this case, Marshall can't take credit for that build. The inspiration, yes. The build, no. Not one part in that amp other than the choke itself was installed by Marshall and I took it out and put it back in after repairing the damaged chassis.

Marshall has relentlessly tried to cut manufacturing costs and quality, durability, and reliability have all suffered badly for it.

As far as quality goes, on Marshall's BEST days, Hiwatt totally outclassed Marshall in build quality. It isn't even close.

With just a few exceptions, Marshall began to lose its way with the JCM900 series. And it's been getting progressively worse as time goes on. Today, I probably would not buy a single new Marshall currently in their catalog. Maybe a 1959HW would be useful, but why, when for comparable money I can get a Friedman or Bray or any of several other makers that makes a better amp that will match the
1959HW for its best tones and much more?

No way would I say Marshall is the greatest amp company. Marshall had the right ideas at the right time and helped rock and roll to become what the musicians of the mid-late 60s wanted to make it, but their success has always been built around a few models that built a legend, and a bunch of affordable but honestly mediocre models that sounded "good enough" to get a lot of people to spend moderate amounts of money to get.

The real money in the music industry is not the gigging musician, it's the guy who likes to play at home or with friends, has taken some lessons, and for him the guitar and amp are a hobby. The hobby market is MOST of the market. Marshall caters to it.

I don't think that's an overly radical view. You prefer older Marshalls, that's all + appreciate honest small master builder's work. You would have a harder time on lespaulforum if you were talking about Bartlett or Yaron Burst handbuilt old-growth replicas, the great folks are more sensitive to these topics over there, the audience here seems to be more laid back.

I would buy a Metro or Germino in a hardtbeat if they were available in the EU for an equally good price now after this Vietnamese fiasco got to my knowledge. Not being able to buy UK Marshalls anymore is a huge mistake from the company. I'm sure they're going to get back to making a proper UK amp line after a couple of years when this knowledge reaches the wider public audience after 1-2 years of latentcy.

 

[Marcomel79]

I would buy a Metro or Germino in a hardtbeat if they were available in the EU for an equally good price now after this Vietnamese fiasco got to my knowledge.

What fiasco?

 

[79 2203]

My simple little DIY attenuator got so hot on the highest setting (minimal attenuation) after playing only half an hour with the master on 7 that I could have made a BBQ party. I'm scared shitless to dime this head on my Greenback halfstack. I have to build a fan into the attenuator or pull out 2 tubes. I'm used to insane volumes but never heard an amp this loud. I'm hearing white noise in my brain right now and I left the studio an hour ago.

If it’s a stock, healthy 2203, I don’t think it’s really necessary to dime the MV to get the most out of the amp, and I don’t think it was designed to be used like a Plexi.
Today a friend came over and we compared my amps(stock 79 2203, 71 1987, 70 Superbass) through the same cab, same rock band volumes, approx the same crunch. The 4 holers went through the Hotplate but with the 2203 we just set the Pre to 7.5 and MV just over 2. They all sounded/felt great…..just different. The 2203’s distortion is a little crisper, less midrangey, and holds together more so it sounds a little less vintage and raw.
I’ve used the Hotplate with the 2203 to get the MV up to 5-6 but I’m not sure the difference was that noticeable.
And the way you described how you intended to set it with the MV cranked and Pre low, would result in a very bright tone. The bright cap on a 2203 is bigger than an early Metalpanel 1987 and it’s on the Preamp, not the Vol, so trying to mimic a Plexi on the 2203 by keeping the Preamp low and cranking the MV won’t result in a Plexi tone, it’ll result in a bright 2203 tone at deafening volumes.

 

[Mats A]

A 1959/1987 and 2203/2204 has different circuits so they won’t sound the same MV or not. Maybe your ’69 had a PPIMV.

 

[LPman]

A 1959/1987 and 2203/2204 has different circuits so they won’t sound the same MV or not. Maybe your ’69 had a PPIMV.

Would be great to find out. I'll try to get pics from my PC, I really want to know why it sounded the way it did, but years ago Neikeel I think the guy's name here who's quite experienced told me it's not a PPIMV nor Larmar just a simple 2204-style mod. But mine sounded exactly like a plexi when I turned up the master and with preamp set not higher than noon. You can clearly hear it in the video I posted a few pages earlier when we A/B'd it with a 1959HW plexi. They sound the same, only the tone knobs had to be set up differently.

 

[LPman]

I've just got the response from Thomann directly from Marshall:


"Hello,

I just received information from Marshall: “Yes, that’s correct, all our transformers are now made in our Vietnam factory to the exact same spec.”

I am afraid, you won't get the old one's any more."


That seals the deal. No UK Marshalls anymore, not even the most expensive handwired series. It's all history folks.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

What actual evidence do you have that Vietnamese made transformers are different from, or inferior to, UK made transformers of the same design specifications?

A transformer is, despite the assertions of some, not a magical device. It's a few circuits of insulated wire wound around a former and equipped with a laminated core of low hysteresis silicon alloyed iron.

If the materials meet specs and the winding meets the established pattern and specs, the transformer neither knows nor cares WHERE it was made and should be as good as any other that's fully to specs.

Prove there's a difference and then your opinion starts to take on a degree of credibility.

Let's see a full set of bench performance tests made on the same amp before and after the transformer swap from legacy/UK brand to current Vietnamese manufacture.

 

[LyseFar]

That seals the deal. No UK Marshalls anymore, not even the most expensive handwired series. It's all history folks.

You know Dagnall (TRX) has not been manufactured in the UK since the late 90’. They were made in Malta.
Have you resided on an isolated pacific island for the last 30 years?

 

[Derrick111]

Prove there's a difference and then your opinion starts to take on a degree of credibility.

Wow, it doesn't work like that... why should a consumer have to justify where they decide they want to put their money? That's his business.

 

[LPman]

You know Dagnall (TRX) has not been manufactured in the UK since the late 90’. They were made in Malta.
Have you resided on an isolated pacific island for the last 30 years?

Malta and UK is in Europe. By the way, even the Malta Dagnalls have been controversial, many guys on the forum changed them to Marstran, Merren, Mercury, etc. Now we don't even get European-made transformers in our handwired Marshall amps.... ARE YOU OK WITH THIS?

I'm not. I pulled out of the purchase and I bought a '79 2203. You can by the Vietnamese Marshall HW, it's already packed for shipment, have fun with it. RNR!

 

[LPman]

Back to the original topic, I've experimented a little bit today with the amp. This is what works best for me in its stock form and is really close in feel and tone to my '69 JMP. I had to turn down the bass to 0 at this volume level to make the low-end response while palm-muting more fluid and less stiff / sticky. A poster above me mentioned something about bright cap values, it might have something to do with it. At this level, the Greenback cab holds together nicely without attenuation, no funny noises so it would be cool if I could be settled with this setting.

I'll make a couple of recordings in the following days. My '56 LP Special sounds atomic through the amp with these settings. In the room, just a foot away from the cab, the sound blast is totally lethal. I would say the amp sounds 95% plexi when set up like this. With the legos replaced to original Mustards I think it has the potential to feel totally vintage and be a keeper.

 

[LyseFar]

Malta and UK is in Europe. By the way, even the Malta Dagnalls have been controversial, many guys on the forum changed them to Marstran, Merren, Mercury, etc. Now we don't even get European-made transformers in our handwired Marshall amps.... ARE YOU OK WITH THIS?

I must be as I have a 2203 with MAV transformers
As I understand the general frustration about the fact that many industries can’t operate in the EU /US because of high salaries/general costs, we have to remember that the original Dagnall and Drake for that matter went out of business many years ago. There are probably a very few present UK transformer factories left that can keep up with Marshalls demands. And Marshall is not a boutique amp builder. They have never used top shelve stuff. They were just lucky that the (cheap) parts they put together back then sounded well.
I also think that it is important not to start any sh*tstorms from wrong facts. If we see that these transformers are bad, then we should of course let Marshall know. But don’t push wrong narratives. The internet is a cruel place and enough nonsense out there already.
I have a JMP 2203 from 77 also and of course it sounds different but there are a lot of parameters in play. Difficult to compare….it is nearly 50 years old. The MAV transformers in the new one appear very solid and delivers what I expect. I read here about that they are noisy. Hmmm is it flux noise? Is it general noise? Physical noise? These postulates comes from people that hasn’t tried one. I use my new 2203 for rehearsals right now and it rocks.
Congrats with your new amp by the way

 

[anitoli]

I'd bet a 12 pack anti-MAV guy drives a Toyota or Subaru.....................................................

 

[jeffp]

well i’ve done a couple stupid things too! nothing personal but yeah that was not a good decision. oh well life goes on! but there’s a good part too. Somebody got a real deal!!!

 

[jeffp]

the 59HW was a good decision!

 

[LPman]

Chassis pic: original 45 year old Dagnall and Drake irons, RFT output tubes, Tungsram preamp tubes.




The PCB board seems nice and unmolested, can't detect modifications. NOS Mustards would look pretty sweet there...

 

[LPman]

I'd bet a 12 pack anti-MAV guy drives a Toyota or Subaru.....................................................

Anti-MAV guy That's me, the boogeyman!! Better close your doors at night. The roalroad company is called the same where I'm from - MAV. It's pretty shitty too...

I'm not driving either one but I have the utmost respect for Japanese manufacturers. I'd probably stay away from a Vietnamese car though. Man, I just wanted to buy a UK Marshall HW to replace my old '69 JMP, did the thread escalate!

 

[Derrick111]

Anti-MAV guy That's me, the boogeyman!! Better close your doors at night. The roalroad company is called the same where I'm from - MAV. It's pretty shitty too...

I'm not driving either one but I have the utmost respect for Japanese manufacturers. I'd probably stay away from a Vietnamese car though. Man, I just wanted to buy a UK Marshall HW to replace my old '69 JMP, did the thread escalate!

Yep, there are a lot of touchy people out there. You probably don't need to replace those caps... I really think it would be a shame, though it's yours to do what you want. I wouldn't think the cost/sound difference would be worth it and it is original. Fine looking chassis there! Would love to hear a sound clip if you have the ability.