New 1959HW vs my 1969 JMP - equally good built quality?

[LPman]

BTW, here's a private video of one of my buddies playing side-by-side a 2016 1959HW (P:10, B:0, M:10, t:10. vol: 8) and my '69 JMP (all noon, master: 6, preamp: 5).

Notice how punchy the HW sounds but the '69 has that sweet air between the notes. Hard choice! I'm still bummed out that I'm not able to buy a proper UK-made HW Marshall, what a super fine amp it was, all history... but let's put that topic to bed now.

 

[anitoli]

Compared to the 69 maybe the HW just needs more hours on it. I have never found new amps to sound their best ever. They gotta cook for a while to really settle in. or maybe the 69 is just getting worn out to the point that it sounds that way because it's not up to spec anymore, or maybe...........

 

[LPman]

Compared to the 69 maybe the HW just needs more hours on it. I have never found new amps to sound their best ever. They gotta cook for a while to really settle in. or maybe the 69 is just getting worn out to the point that it sounds that way because it's not up to spec anymore, or maybe...........

It's not relevant now since the HW is not made in the UK anymore so it's out. I'm going for the '79 2203.

 

[anitoli]

It's not relevant now since the HW is not made in the UK anymore so it's out. I'm going for the '79 2203.

Mine is.

 

[jlinde1973]

It's not relevant now since the HW is not made in the UK anymore so it's out. I'm going for the '79 2203.

Why can't u buy a slightly used couple year old HW built in UK with Dagnals? Pretty sure the MIV trannies started in 23' so anything before that should be good to go.

 

[playloud]

It's not relevant now since the HW is not made in the UK anymore so it's out. I'm going for the '79 2203.

I don't really understand what you mean here. The HW is still assembled in the UK, but now the transformers are made in Vietnam rather than Malta. Even the 60s Marshalls had components that were made overseas (resistors from Spain/Yugoslavia, knobs from Germany etc.) There are plenty of highly desirable old valves that say "made in x" but were actually made in y, which is far more duplicitous.

Mine is.

View attachment 151492

I think his point is that the "Dagnall" transformer was actually made in Malta by a company called TRX (that acquired the name "Dagnall" after the original company went insolvent). At least that's what I think the point is...

About 10 years ago I had a '78 2204 with a replaced later UK Dagnall PT - so had the proper plate voltage - and it was the only amp I ever liked as much as my '69 JMP 50. I A/B'd them for a week straight non-stop and decided to keep the '69 only because it sounded a little bit thicker and jucier while the 2204 a bit snappier and brighter but the tonal DNS of those two amps was exactly the same. I've been missing that 2204 ever since. It had that mojo and magic.

That makes sense. Based on the pic you shared, your '69 has much more in common with a 2204 than a stock '69. I suspect a 2204/3 might be a good choice for you.

2.7k for that modded organ chassis is ridiculous. I've seen quite a few JMP 2203s in the €1500 range on European classified sites.

 

[LPman]

I don't really understand what you mean here. The HW is still assembled in the UK, but now the transformers are made in Vietnam rather than Malta. Even the 60s Marshalls had components that were made overseas (resistors from Spain/Yugoslavia, knobs from Germany etc.) There are plenty of highly desirable old valves that say "made in x" but were actually made in y, which is far more duplicitous.



I think his point is that the "Dagnall" transformer was actually made in Malta by a company called TRX (that acquired the name "Dagnall" after the original company went insolvent). At least that's what I think the point is...



That makes sense. Based on the pic you shared, your '69 has much more in common with a 2204 than a stock '69. I suspect a 2204/3 might be a good choice for you.

2.7k for that modded organ chassis is ridiculous. I've seen quite a few JMP 2203s in the €1500 range on European classified sites.

- I don't want to overexplain this anymore so one last time: transformers are the heart and soul of the amp right? Many guys on this forum go as far as changing Dagnalls to Merren or Marstran. A Handwired Marshall with Vietnamese ones are out of question. Reliability, tone, resale value, etc are one side of the coin and then there are also principles here. This is a bitch move from a company I respected, no way I give them such amount of money. I had a small DSL 15 practice head that sounded really cool and it had Vietnamese parts, for €300 that's perfectly acceptable. Flagship top of the line HW models must have English / European parts. I'm afraid I have no common ground with folks who defend this situation, that's all right.

- You understand correctly, that's what the point is. Even the Malta transformers were not as highly regarded as the UK Dagnalls but they were still made by a European company. Have you compared Chinese Greenbacks with regular UK Greenbacks? Celestion told us back then they are the same thing. How that turned out again?

- I hope so too. My '69 was basically a 2204 made of fully vintage parts so it was kind of the best of both worlds. I have high hopes for the '79 2203. Fingers crossed!

 

[vogonpoet]

Lots of other options out there for a handwired amp with good parts & transformers.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

Going to be really honest here. Maybe too honest for (some people) in the room.

I love a good classic Marshall. The classic models from the JTM and JMP eras most of all. The amps from the 60s, and into the 70s.

The 1959HW is very close to a 1959 in terms of mechanical build quality. It is MECHANICALLY almost identical to an early 70s Superlead. Aside from the power inlet and impedance and volume selectors.

I own/have owned multiple Superlead and 2203s. And a few more modern Marshalls, but actually fewer than the number of Superleads I've owned. Yes, the 1959s all sound better than the 2203s but the 2203s are quite good in their own right, plus their ability to deliver their best tone at a less than lethal volume level is valuable.

I've rebuilt a few JMPs, and in one case it's really pretty honest for me to say that I built a replica of a '69 Plexi in a butchered, then repaired, original '69 Plexi chassis using its original perf board. Truly it is the Amp Of Theseus. That amp sounds fantastic, and in this case, Marshall can't take credit for that build. The inspiration, yes. The build, no. Not one part in that amp other than the choke itself was installed by Marshall and I took it out and put it back in after repairing the damaged chassis.

Marshall has relentlessly tried to cut manufacturing costs and quality, durability, and reliability have all suffered badly for it.

As far as quality goes, on Marshall's BEST days, Hiwatt totally outclassed Marshall in build quality. It isn't even close.

With just a few exceptions, Marshall began to lose its way with the JCM900 series. And it's been getting progressively worse as time goes on. Today, I probably would not buy a single new Marshall currently in their catalog. Maybe a 1959HW would be useful, but why, when for comparable money I can get a Friedman or Bray or any of several other makers that makes a better amp that will match the
1959HW for its best tones and much more?

No way would I say Marshall is the greatest amp company. Marshall had the right ideas at the right time and helped rock and roll to become what the musicians of the mid-late 60s wanted to make it, but their success has always been built around a few models that built a legend, and a bunch of affordable but honestly mediocre models that sounded "good enough" to get a lot of people to spend moderate amounts of money to get.

The real money in the music industry is not the gigging musician, it's the guy who likes to play at home or with friends, has taken some lessons, and for him the guitar and amp are a hobby. The hobby market is MOST of the market. Marshall caters to it.

 

[LyseFar]

They produce a high pitched voice straight out of the box...

Can you elaborate on this please? Is it something you have from firsthand experience or….?

 

[Sir Don]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in this thread yet:

 

[Marcomel79]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet:

It has. Many times. Who cares? Does it sound good? Yes? Then play the amp. Enjoy it

 

[Sir Don]

It has. Many times. Who cares? Does it sound good? Yes? Then play the amp. Enjoy it

I agree.

 

[mtbcn]

You can cancel a Reverb sale and refund a PayPal transaction.

Wait for the 1959HW, play it with your guitar and cabinet, then check the bias. Remember what valves were in your vintage 1959 and try to use the same.

My guess is that there are some things that will sound better and some things that you will miss. And then play the amp the next day and surprise, you'll hear something else.

If you hate it, send it back to Thomann and I can point you to some vintage 1959s for sale here in Switzerland.

 

[PelliX]

Altough since then, I have found plenty of evidence that Marshall indeed started to produce even flagship models like the 2203X with these Asian transformers, they are called MAV (Marshall Vietnam). They produce a high pitched voice straight out of the box... good outlook for long-term reliability right and resale potential right?

Pray tell how you determined they make this high pitched thingy? Mine don't - in fact, I've never even heard one do that, certainly not due to the transformer itself.

They responded quickly that they will forward my inquiry to the upper level experts because they can't unscrew the back panel of new amps.

Strange. Swapping valves which requires one to remove the back panel does not void the warranty. May be an internal policy of their own, of course.

If it's true that I can't buy a fully UK-made Marshall anymore without this Vietnamese bullshit, this company is dead for me from now on.

Hate to break it to ya, but you do realize that hardly any semiconductors have been produced in the UK for ... decades, right? I'm not too sure we have an operating tolex factory, either. The fact that it was "made in the UK" means it was assembled there. In the case of a 1959HW it was actually assembled by hand in the UK, probably by Brits (check the labels).

That's like Gibson putting Chinese pickups in their Murphy Lab models...

Gibson have a choice as they still make pickups in the US. Now find me this mysterious British transformer manufacturer...?

Who the hell is gonna buy 2-3K amps with these joke transformers??

People who like the tone. Do you?

 

[Marcomel79]

Not sure if it has been suggested here, snd if it has, i apologise... first of all, if you loved your 50watter, why didnt you get another 50watter in its place? Also, if youre in the UK, theres a few people here that could sell/build you a nice replice with vintage parts. @neikeel is the first who comes to mind....

 

[Guitaraficionado74]

That 1959HW is a beautiful build. I bet it sounds awesome.
But why are you stressing over an amp you've never plugged in? Maybe it sounds amazing. And will everybody just chill about those Vietnamese transformers, jeez. EVERY other electrical appliance in your household is made in Asia, including the phone or laptop you are looking at right now. You whine about those too?? The modern day Vietnamese transformers are just fine, and probably have much tighter tolerances compared to 60's 'originals'. Judge with your EARS, not your eyes. If you still don't like what Marshall is producing today, go get a custom build, and have them put whatever parts you like, from whatever country you like.

 

[Mad Jack]

So a pretty sad thing happened the other day. I can't even remember the reason but I put my modded '69 JMP 50 up on Reverb a few months ago and totally forgot about it. I realized that when I got the notification that someone paypal'd me a big load of money. I drove the amp to the guy to give it to him in person because I couldn't risk shipping it. When he turned it on and started playing I realized this is the worst day of my life. The guy almost pissed himself from the extasy of hearing such sound, he couldn't actually believe a Marshall can sound like THAT.

When I got home I purchased a brand-new 1959HW off Thomann for 1500 bucks right off the bat (I'm in the EU) because I need an amp to play rehearsals. I'm comparing gutshots right now. They seem equally well-built to me but I'm no tech-guy. I keep reading on forums how the 1959HW is not up to pair with the old ones or even to clones, that they are inferior and the Dagnall irons are crap. Is that true? I had the chance to buy a '79 JMP 2203 for 500 bucks more but I decided by the HW Plexi because every single demo I hear about late 70s 2203s, they sound harsh and overly trebly to me. I liked that my '69 had a healthy midrange and wasn't so strident sounding as some other JMPs. The HW seems to sound much healthier in the midrange compared to those late 70s JMPs.

What do you think about the build quality? Do you think I'm in for a huge dissappointment? Are the caps and resistors in the HW really much worse compared to the ones in my '69? Aren't those yellow caps in the HW new Mustard reissues? Here are the gutshots of my '69 JMP vs the 1959HW:


1969 JMP 50:

View attachment 151436

1959HW:

View attachment 151437


Do you think it was wise to choose the 1959HW over the '79 2203?

Here's the gutshot of a '79 (not the actual amp):


View attachment 151438

I live in the north of France, if you are not too far from home, I can correct your 1959hw so that it sounds glorious like the older marshalls!

 

[Mats A]

Wow seems you’re more concerned with where parts are made than how it sounds. Do you think the resistors and caps were all UK made on old Marshalls? Why must something be of less quality just because it’s made in Vietnam? My guess is they are just as good as UK workers. In the old days the components vary up to 20% in tolerance. In a circuit that can make huge differencies. Then components will also drift in value with time. Your amp seemed to be more a 2204 MV amp so a 1959/1987 won’t be the same anyway. About that amp on YT with the high pitched voice it was clearly something wrong with it. That is not how the new 1959HW sounds even with the MAV transformers. I very much doubt Marshall should put inferior transformers in their amps. I think they still care about their reputation for making great sounding amps. Then about the chinese made Celestions. They shipped over their machines and the cones were still made in the UK if i remember correctly. They were just assembled in China and why shouldn’t they be able to do it as good? Do you want a UK made iPhone?! Angus Young actually prefers chinese made Greenbacks nowdays. I got a late 2014 made 1959 SLP Reissue with the effects loop that can be bypassed. I’ve had the channels cascaded and one of the volumes is now a master volume. It’s kind of like a 2203 but with 1959 filtering. It sounds killer and i can get great distortion and tone with the guitar straight into the amp. It has more distortion than a normal 2203 but not as trebly. I also have a late 2016 made 1960BX cab. It’s made right when Celestion brought the production of Greenbacks back to the UK. So when i asked them if my GB’s were made in China or UK they couldn’t say. They said i had to open up my cab and check. I haven’t done that But since it sounds great seems it doesn’t matter. I think you should care about how things sound instead of where they are made. Just play and enjoy.

 

[Trem man]

You made a huge mistake. You could've gotten out of the deal by saying sorry, its had already sold locally or something but all that money was just too tempting. (I speak from experience, my '66 18 watt 2-12 went the same way, lol.) But this is now.
My amp techs feel that the biggest part of the vintage Marshall sound are the old Drake and (real) Dagnall transformers - even more than ptp vs pcb. So a 70's pcb JMP 4 hole model 1987 w/Drakes is going to be closer to your beloved '69 than the new 1959 HW. Plus a 100 watt amp sounds way different than your old 50 watt.
So now you can try to find another old 60's model, learn to live with a 70's or look into something newer like the Suhr SL67, Friedman Plex, Park P50M (out of production and extremely hard to find), etc.