Pickup Lesson. Feel free to ask questions

[captcoolaid]

Capt,,, is there a certain ohms where the bass mids and treble are all enhanced. I find myself trying pickups but either they have lots of bass n thin highs or too many highs n no bass. Or a great sound but low output.
Your Asylum pickup has me thinking but i might go for a custom wind. Something we can get together on and duplicate. Im a tone junkie and want a Billy Blades spec so i get the same results everytime i order.

It is more in turn count than anything else. I find for me around 8.7k or so really starts to get the full spectrum of tone going. While my pups for the same model often differ in DC from pup to pup, the turn count is the same.

Lesson in Wire.

When we winders by wire it is usually min/nom which means for say 43 wire it can range from .0028- .0031. what that means is when winding we set the tension for x and when y comes in the tension is a bit greater and causes the wire to be stretched just a bit more so your DC will change. The best and most accurate way is to measure wire distance coming directly off the spool. Unfortunately I rely on turn count. I am getting a length counter soon.

Also wire changes from batch to batch. Newer 42 used to be close to .173 ohms a foot and now is .187 so same turn count can change a 5000 turn bobbin by as much as .6 ohms, which doubled can add 1.2k to a pickup, but the tone remains the same. Does this make any sense.

 

[66 galaxie]

Makes sense to me.
Thanks for sharing Capt!

 

[captcoolaid]

Any time. I hope others may have questions regarding the whys and hows of this art. There are many variations of what we do and i know a few, not all but enough. If you are curious of anything let me know.

 

[DirtySteve]

What a cool thread! I wonder what it is that make a pickup sound the way it does. I hope I'm not just asking the same thing Billy asked, but what makes a pickup have more highs vs. less or rounder highs...tight bass vs mushy bass...mids? Why are some pickups smooth while others have more growl or bite? Does the actual wind effect those things or is it more about other components?

From my own experiments I understand how the magnet type effects some of these things, but I've learned that if I don't like the general sound of the pup to begin with there's no magnet swap that's going to turn it into something I will.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

I recently picked up an SD-8 Invader, rated @ 16.8 k

Invader | Seymour Duncan Tone Details

It shows (on the spec page) an eq of 4/8/7 (Treb / Mid / Bass)

I know many pickups are rated in the range you stated (8,7 k)

I'm wondering:

*how is the eq defined?

is it the more winds, the 3 ceramic magnets, or?

*how are the dynamics affected?

the higher the # (say 16.8k over 8.7k) has higher output, - does it then limit it's inherent dynamic range, or does it simply drive the pre-amp to a brickwall effect? Could you simply further the distance between magnet & strings to gain dynamic range back?

 

[Billyblades]

I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS CAPT...

#1 BILL LAWRENCE pickups are pretty neat. are there benefits or drawbacks to that design with the thin blades?

#2 What benefits do your pickups have over a proven line like SD or Dimarzio.
Maybe you can enlighten us to what makes the MHD brand unique?

ok 3rd q i want a pickup made just for me. something between a duncan custom and a tone zone. the hottest pickup that will enhance all the frequencies and give a full tone,,,, beefy thick lows,,,, robust mids and full but glassy highs but nothing too thick or too biting. nothing that crunches like the tz tho. maybe around 13-15k ohms with a slight asymetric wind?

 

[captcoolaid]

What a cool thread! I wonder what it is that make a pickup sound the way it does. I hope I'm not just asking the same thing Billy asked, but what makes a pickup have more highs vs. less or rounder highs...tight bass vs mushy bass...mids? Why are some pickups smooth while others have more growl or bite? Does the actual wind effect those things or is it more about other components?

From my own experiments I understand how the magnet type effects some of these things, but I've learned that if I don't like the general sound of the pup to begin with there's no magnet swap that's going to turn it into something I will.

Lets start with brightnes vs rounder highs. For this we will use a JB vs a moded JB vs my SJ

JB= Poly wire and a A5 mag it can become shrill at the top end, changing this to an A8 really opens it up,. Now when you enter PE wire into the equation you get a smoother growl with less of the irritating shrill on the top end. that is why the SJ uses PE instead of poly.

Tension and TPL ( Turns Per Layer ) also contribute to the root tone of any pickup. I use moderate to high tension to get the turn count on my higher DC stuff while I change to a more moderate tension for everything in the 14k and down range. i feel for me anyway that it produces a better bottom end and less treble.

TPL has a lot to do with brightness of a pickup. Example a single coil. One would think that a more scattered wound approach would give it more of a high end response when in fact more TPL and a closer stacked wind will give a smoother Glass type tone.

 

[captcoolaid]

I recently picked up an SD-8 Invader, rated @ 16.8 k

Invader | Seymour Duncan Tone Details

It shows (on the spec page) an eq of 4/8/7 (Treb / Mid / Bass)

I know many pickups are rated in the range you stated (8,7 k)

I'm wondering:

*how is the eq defined?

is it the more winds, the 3 ceramic magnets, or?

*how are the dynamics affected?

the higher the # (say 16.8k over 8.7k) has higher output, - does it then limit it's inherent dynamic range, or does it simply drive the pre-amp to a brickwall effect? Could you simply further the distance between magnet & strings to gain dynamic range back?

I* am not 100% on this so take it as what I believe, but i think wire type vs mag type gives you the EQ deffinition. I do know that in actual out put it is more defined by mag choice than the turn count.

Example my Manfred is 21k, output is close to 950 Mv with an A5 in it. Same pup with an A8 in it strummed normally is around 1150 Mv and beat up like I play is closer to 1600Mv. It pushes enough to clip some affect pedals.


As far as lowering it to gain a dynamics you actually lose some dynamics. Remember the mag pule on the slugs and keeper bar. You can however De Gauss a magnet to tame some of it.

 

[captcoolaid]

I HAVE 2 QUESTIONS CAPT...

#1 BILL LAWRENCE pickups are pretty neat. are there benefits or drawbacks to that design with the thin blades?

#2 What benefits do your pickups have over a proven line like SD or Dimarzio.
Maybe you can enlighten us to what makes the MHD brand unique?

ok 3rd q i want a pickup made just for me. something between a duncan custom and a tone zone. the hottest pickup that will enhance all the frequencies and give a full tone,,,, beefy thick lows,,,, robust mids and full but glassy highs but nothing too thick or too biting. nothing that crunches like the tz tho. maybe around 13-15k ohms with a slight asymetric wind?

Okay I do not know how to multi quote so here are the three in order.


1) Bills pups.

What can i say an amazing guy and designer. The thing that most do not know about his design phillosophy is transparency. None of his pickups color the tone of the guitar. They just have for lack of a better phrase, they have no tone. They let the guitar and the amp speak not the wind. I feel that is what sets Bill apart from everyone else. In other words if you sound like shit with his pups well get some better gear.

2) I cater to my players and all I do is High output. I do not have major label artists and i do not have the customer base to require me to put out this model or that. I am by no ,means bagging on the big guys I just do not need to go that rout so I do not. I am a little guy in a big pond and i like it this way. If my winds slip even a little I lose so they all have to be that good, not generic tone but individual tone.

I have always told myself if I ever get that big I will have a custom shop and continue to do what I do now for limited runs. You know like do a couple hundred hand wounds a year and sneak them into stores for the same as the reg pups are.


Sorry bud already have that DC locked up the Asylum and the Asylum + My number 2 selling pickup right behing the SJ.

 

[captcoolaid]

I will give this portion a couple of days and move on to some metals and their reaction to tone, bloom, separation and a bit of sustain.

 

[DirtySteve]

This is one of those things that intrigues the hell out of me. I don't even know why, but I want to understand pickups soooo bad. I'm about half drunk and :cool2: () right now so I'm going to chew on this a while before I stick my foot in my mouth, but all the questions and your answers tie into what I was trying to get at. This is my favorite thread EVER!!

 

[blues_n_cues]

both counters should let ya nail it down to very tight spec.
I'll have to dig up that Fralin thread about Gibson & the "looking out the window" deal about the original high output pups.

Usually when someone wants a different sound or more hi/less mud whatever,the first thing they do is talk about switching pups w/out giving regard to pots or caps & how they effect the tone too. ya don't just go slapping a new carb on a car w/out maybe changing the intake & tuning the beast. it's a blend of all the components.IMO.
Changing just the pots in a Les Paul makes a world of difference in tone & response,other wise they would have never put knobs on them.
good thread.

 

[captcoolaid]

This is 100%. My goal here is to help folks understand the whats and the whys. For a harness I use MSSC. They are by far the best drop in harness on the market. They are very transparent, and that is what i want in a harness. These are the 3 I use. The workmanship is off the hook. Cleanliness = quiet in this aspect.

All my Lps

Strats

and my Tele

 

[HOT TUBES 70]

Great Thread Idea !!!

Awesome stuff Capt ....

 

[captcoolaid]

Thanks. I am doing some video of the basics here is how to do leads and tape a bobbin. Well how I do it anyway.

 

[mickeydg5]

Yes a cool thread. Do we have a pickup sticky thread. This is a good candidate.

Do you measure other component properties besides the DCR to determine frequency or output to see what all the little differences make in a pickups character?

 

[captcoolaid]

Yes i think some of that will be covered in the next part which is Alloys, then maybe magnets and the affect they have. We shall see.

 

[Billyblades]

You know what Rayne?

You seem like a cool dude brother! You know your shit! You give a shit!
And i have the same love n philosophy with my Blades amps coming out!

Your a Winner bro and i will be happy to order an asylum from you!
I am one of the lil guys myself putting out a great product with a even better deal fighting for my survival and looking towards the Top of the Mountain! Fighting all the way against the odds and against people with alot more money!

I want one of your Pickups ... and from what i see,,, most likely more than one in 2013.

I know what my Christmas present to myself will be!

 

[captcoolaid]

Billy tell you what bro do me a solid clip with your amp and I will give you a bridge as a present.

 

[captcoolaid]

Got to run all. I wish i new how to stream you could all watch what goes on as it is done. Time for work will be back in a bit.