Reverb Listing: Marshall Super Lead 1968

[AndyD]

I don't

Source?

I don't know if this is fact, but I have suspected for a while that he might have use a Superbass. After all, Hendrixs sound (and he was a massive influence to these guys) was hardly "wooly"!

 

[AlfaQV]

Good luck on your journey, I really mean that. Most people do not have an opportunity to chase his tone with an actual 12000 series. I was a second year guitarist in a Beatles tribute band when that first album was released, and I was stunned to say the least. Almost hung up the instrument. I saw them open for Sabbath at the Spectrum in Philly. I did not feel that his live tone was like the first album, but there was a lot of post-production work on that album. He could of course nail any recorded guitar part live, and even faster / better if he felt like it. The man was truly an alien being.

I undoubtedly don't hold a candle to EVH and only embark on this tone quest for personal satisfaction.

Indeed, I am just a steward of this amp and if the tone doesn't suit me then perhaps I'll find someone willing to trade me a 12000 series with the "Lead" circuit rather than modifying this one.

Unfortunately I'm not well-versed in amp building or repair and initially figured changing the circuit would be relatively straightforward and easily reversible. I appreciate everyone's input, knowledge, and passion for these amps.

 

[playloud]

Source?

I think this is the closest to a primary one I've seen (from the exhibition of Jimmy's rig at the Met a few years ago):



Of course, it could have been modified any which way, and you also have to assume the description is accurate. In the absence of better evidence, I suspect it's one of those things we can speculate about on internet forums until we all croak (see also: EVH's 12301).

Indeed, I am just a steward of this amp and if the tone doesn't suit me then perhaps I'll find someone willing to trade me a 12000 series with the "Lead" circuit rather than modifying this one.

That sounds eminently fair and reasonable. I am confident you will be thrilled as-is, however!

 

[Beryllium-9]

Hey sweet amp. I have 10568. Is your OT stock?

Yeah, the amp is all there.. Is yours a replacement? From my experience the sound a 10 series is a far cry from more aggressive examples. I think Neil or Tazin mentioned something about the transformers associated with them being the culprit. Reminds me of a '67 Camaro. The improvements with the '68 made a big difference.

I think this is the closest to a primary one I've seen (from the exhibition of Jimmy's rig at the Met a few years ago):



Of course, it could have been modified any which way, and you also have to assume the description is accurate. In the absence of better evidence, I suspect it's one of those things we can speculate about on internet forums until we all croak (see also: EVH's 12301).



That sounds eminently fair and reasonable. I am confident you will be thrilled as-is, however!

One subject that I have never seen addressed on this website is echoplex mods. Pagey, like many others, ran his in front of the amp. I've had quite a few over the years but haven't used one in a long time because I got sick of all the BS.. Just reamping with digitals like most at this point.

 

[Ned B]

There are a couple of non-invasive mods you can do with a Super Bass that are easily reversible and therefore won't devalue the amp. Add a .68 across the V2 820 cathode resistor (solder to the leads so as not to disturb original solder joints), add the 5000pf ceramic disc cap to the volume control.

 

[Beryllium-9]

There are a couple of non-invasive mods you can do with a Super Bass that are easily reversible and therefore won't devalue the amp. Add a .68 across the V2 820 cathode resistor (solder to the leads so as not to disturb original solder joints), add the 5000pf ceramic disc cap to the volume control.

Perhaps this is where alligator clips become quite handy. Ah..the avenues of tone chasing! For me, at some point settling and leaving well enough alone makes sense.

 

[Ned B]

Alligator clips to test the mods is a good idea. an additional mod for the slope resistor would be to add a 92K in parallel to the 56K to get around 33K. Definitely check with a meter since values can be off. With those 3 mods you are close to lead spec. The 47K NFB resistor, slit cathode and .022 PI coupling caps are only mods left to get to full lead spec.

 

[neikeel]

I really would not mod the amp.
The Dagnall iron is perfect and the cap combination as is works fine, just put an EQ pedal in front of it adjust to taste.
When you get these set right with the power stage cooking there is relatively little difference between lead and bass. You notice the subtle tonal differences at volume settings on the first half of the dial.
It is of course your amp, all 6.5k, and you can do what you want when you want but it would, IMO, be a shame.

 

[playloud]

Yeah, the amp is all there.. Is yours a replacement? From my experience the sound a 10 series is a far cry from more aggressive examples. I think Neil or Tazin mentioned something about the transformers associated with them being the culprit. Reminds me of a '67 Camaro. The improvements with the '68 made a big difference.

The serial numbers ranges don't really correspond to specific specs. Your amp looks to have the later Dagnall transformers (which were pretty consistently used from late '67-'70). I'm not sure how much of the perceived differences in tone are really down to the transformers though, as opposed to the changes in the circuit (particularly Super Leads).

 

[Theresa]

Hey sweet amp. I have 10568. Is your OT stock?

Mine is 10495

 

[Steve Smith]

Just remember that Song Remains the Same (provided you’re a zeppelin fan) was a super bass as were many other stage amps for famous bands. Albeit may have already had kt88 tubes by then. That frequency response rocks just as hard and Page’s #1 amp was at some point converted to superlead specs when someone put in the effects loop and apparently he totally hated it. Now it’s back to super bass specs with a replaced output transformer salvaged from another plexi. Just fyi. Give it a solid chance.

Completely agree, the superbass just were basically the same circuitry but the eq was balanced differently. Hendrix preferred JMP Superbass amps and Page and Jones got Marshall to build their backline for the US Tour and used 200 watt heads for the Maddison Square gig with 8 x EL34's in each head. I did have a Sound City 200 Watt valve head about 40 years ago.. it was pure clean loud.. could not od it ...

 

[Steve Smith]

I don't

I don't know if this is fact, but I have suspected for a while that he might have use a Superbass. After all, Hendrixs sound (and he was a massive influence to these guys) was hardly "wooly"!

Yes he did

 

[Steve Smith]

I really would not mod the amp.
The Dagnall iron is perfect and the cap combination as is works fine, just put an EQ pedal in front of it adjust to taste.
When you get these set right with the power stage cooking there is relatively little difference between lead and bass. You notice the subtle tonal differences at volume settings on the first half of the dial.
It is of course your amp, all 6.5k, and you can do what you want when you want but it would, IMO, be a shame.

You are right. Unless you are pro tone chaser with a fully qualified tech. My own personal opinion is just clip a vintage amp for a nice hard clean sound then use a hard Tube screamer and a good wah with a nice clean pickup... I will sent a little demo to this site soon when I get myself sober. Show you what I am talking about re sound xxx

 

[Steve Smith]

Yes he did

Are you Andy Deexus?

 

[Blue Floyd]

Yes he did

Not doubting that he owned/used a Super Bass at some point, but he also used Super Leads. In fact, the Anthology book shows only Super Leads if I recall correctly. If I recall correctly, the idea that he used a Super Bass during the classic era came about only due to the Met exhibit. So, I'm interested if there is something more to this than conjecture or opinion.

 

[AndyD]

Not doubting that he owned/used a Super Bass at some point, but he also used Super Leads. In fact, the Anthology book shows only Super Leads if I recall correctly. If I recall correctly, the idea that he used a Super Bass during the classic era came about only due to the Met exhibit. So, I'm interested if there is something more to this than conjecture or opinion.

Were the amps identified as superleads from photos of rear panels? Obviously can’t tell from the front.

 

[Derrick111]

I will absolutely play around with it for a while before deciding anything about it. As I mentioned earlier, I always try to keep vintage amps as close to original as possible. The 12000 series has always been alluring because of its association with EVH and that's the tone I'm looking to get from this amp. There are many other factors to Eddie's tone (namely his hands and skill), of course, but I know the amp is a part of that equation

Two things to consider:

(1) You will not get EVH tone form a stock Marshall alone. EVH didn't run it that way. He ran the Marshall into a load box and used the signal out to reamp through another amp along with several other factors. Plugging into a stock '67 Marshall isn't going to give you the famous EVH brown sound.

(2) Owners and collectors value things as they were form the factory on vintage music gear. Once you go putting a soldering iron in there or moving things around, it will always look that way even if you try to put it back. Once more, it creates doubt of originality because you can no longer simply say "with Marshall, anything is possible" when someone has clearly made changes. As others have said, you really should consider not altering that sweet Marshall. Not only are plexis becoming exceptionally rare in unmodded state (everybody wants to go in there and start changing stuff to reach some ideal sound), but you have a even more rare bird there that is particularly sough after. It is your amp to do what you want, but I wish people would experiment getting their sound on clones or already hacked or restored examples rather than changing relatively clean factory originals. From my experience, you will either just end up putting it back to stock anyhow, or the next owner will. But the value and originality will never be the same.

I undoubtedly don't hold a candle to EVH and only embark on this tone quest for personal satisfaction.

Indeed, I am just a steward of this amp and if the tone doesn't suit me then perhaps I'll find someone willing to trade me a 12000 series with the "Lead" circuit rather than modifying this one.

Unfortunately I'm not well-versed in amp building or repair and initially figured changing the circuit would be relatively straightforward and easily reversible. I appreciate everyone's input, knowledge, and passion for these amps.

Well, the Jimmy Page Anthology shows the MSG set up as having the Superbass for the Theremin, but original video clearly shows it was an Orange head for that job. You really have to be careful of internet claims of absolutes from people speculating this and that. It always confuses me why so many people think that you need mods to get that MSG sound when you can get it with a stock Marshall Superlead or Superbass.

 

[Blue Floyd]

Were the amps identified as superleads from photos of rear panels? Obviously can’t tell from the front.

Yes, see the linked pictures midway through: https://www.marshallforum.com/threads/live-1973-jimmy-page-marshall-tone.283/page-2

 

[Beryllium-9]

Two things to consider:

(1) You will not get EVH tone form a stock Marshall alone. EVH didn't run it that way. He ran the Marshall into a load box and used the signal out to reamp through another amp along with several other factors. Plugging into a stock '67 Marshall isn't going to give you the famous EVH brown sound.

(2) Owners and collectors value things as they were form the factory on vintage music gear. Once you go putting a soldering iron in there or moving things around, it will always look that way even if you try to put it back. Once more, it creates doubt of originality because you can no longer simply say "with Marshall, anything is possible" when someone has clearly made changes. As others have said, you really should consider not altering that sweet Marshall. Not only are plexis becoming exceptionally rare in unmodded state (everybody wants to go in there and start changing stuff to reach some ideal sound), but you have a even more rare bird there that is particularly sough after. It is your amp to do what you want, but I wish people would experiment getting their sound on clones or already hacked or restored examples rather than changing relatively clean factory originals. From my experience, you will either just end up putting it back to stock anyhow, or the next owner will. But the value and originality will never be the same.



Well, the Jimmy Page Anthology shows the MSG set up as having the Superbass for the Theremin, but original video clearly shows it was an Orange head for that job. You really have to be careful of internet claims of absolutes from people speculating this and that. Somewhere I have photos of J Page's #1 and it is a Superlead. It always confuses me why so many people think that you need mods to get that MSG sound when you can get it with a stock Marshall Superlead.

I totally agree with you on all of the points that you made. The brown sound thing has been like the everlasting gobstopper and people are often disappointed after spending a ton of money on a vintage amp. Especially a 4 holer because it takes more skill to run it when compared to a MV amp. Others tweak on broken solder joints and replaced transformers these days and it makes a guy wonder what a Marshall amp is all about? Sound or profit? I believe that these amps are just some of the tools that I have kept in my war chest over the years but I do cherish them, however.

Although the old Marshall sound is sweet, this amp is one of the best I have ever used for studio work. I never bought one and I wish that I had while they were still affordable. Big name studios and stars like Joe here snatch them up and now they are hard to find. 6V6's with this particular mid boost circuit is incredible and the versatility is insane. I remember experimenting with different tubes, speakers, mics, mic pre's, etc...tone chasing, and no matter what we did, regardless of mic angle or distance, it was killer and made it hard to decide what sounded best. In fact, I bet you could couple this amp with cheap Chinese tubes and speakers and it would still great..! A reissue popped up locally but I am scared to buy gear right now. Just buying gold at this time so if you guys have an interest here it is. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/d/walnut-creek-suhr-jim-kelley-reverb-amp/7600405219.html

 

[AndyD]

I totally agree with you on all of the points that you made. The brown sound thing has been like the everlasting gobstopper and people are often disappointed after spending a ton of money on a vintage amp. Especially a 4 holer because it takes more skill to run it when compared to a MV amp. Others tweak on broken solder joints and replaced transformers these days and it makes a guy wonder what a Marshall amp is all about? Sound or profit? I believe that these amps are just some of the tools that I have kept in my war chest over the years but I do cherish them, however.

Although the old Marshall sound is sweet, this amp is one of the best I have ever used for studio work. I never bought one and I wish that I had while they were still affordable. Big name studios and stars like Joe here snatch them up and now they are hard to find. 6V6's with this particular mid boost circuit is incredible and the versatility is insane. I remember experimenting with different tubes, speakers, mics, mic pre's, etc...tone chasing, and no matter what we did, regardless of mic angle or distance, it was killer and made it hard to decide what sounded best. In fact, I bet you could couple this amp with cheap Chinese tubes and speakers and it would still great..! A reissue popped up locally but I am scared to buy gear right now. Just buying gold at this time so if you guys have an interest here it is. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/msg/d/walnut-creek-suhr-jim-kelley-reverb-amp/7600405219.html

No doubt about it, those Kelley’s sound nice! I have built one 4 x 6v6 amp before and it ripped. In fact I am in the middle of rebuilding it. Shame the Kelley’s are so expensive.