Srill no Marshall modeler? (and the death of the amp?)

[thesunship]

There's another thing about live music which has changed - in the old days, the PA was basically for vocals and to get the sound of the instruments dispersed so the audience could hear a decent mix from wherever they were seated. In small rooms I don't think they micd the amps or drums - like how jazz is usually played. Now the pa sound has become more important than the sound onstage, in fact - if there's NO sound onstage - perfect! Yeah! great for the sound person but for the performers it's a bit like acting with a green screen all the time. I personally don't like performing and only hearing guitar in my little ear buds! Especially if the drummer is playing acoustic drums as they often do on "silent stages" - it's just weird.

In this clip, you can tell the sound is simply the stage volume being pickup up by a few mics, and that's it. Players are happy, and the sound is balanced. It still seems the most natural and organic way to do it and the tones are fantastic, but yes this is 54 years ago.

 

[LoudStroud]

Ironically, while jumping in on this conversation, a friend who just saw U2 in Vegas said he heard The Edge is using UA’s amp modeler pedals.

 

[Rikamortis]

I have a Marshall CODE 50, and I would have preferred a CODE 100 if that hadn't been discontinued.

Am I missing something in your message, or have you missed the CODE line?

Basically what he was saying is the CODE amps really suck and sound like shit. I had a code 100 and it did sound like shit. I sold it faster than touch

I have a Marshall CODE 50, and I would have preferred a CODE 100 if that hadn't been discontinued.

Am I missing something in your message, or have you missed the CODE line?

e plays in arpeggio. The code amps really do suck yeah you can get a few okay tones out of them but they don't even touch a Marshall tube amp.

I have a Marshall CODE 50, and I would have preferred a CODE 100 if that hadn't been discontinued.

Am I missing something in your message, or have you missed the CODE line?

 

[FutureProf88]

Ironically, while jumping in on this conversation, a friend who just saw U2 in Vegas said he heard The Edge is using UA’s amp modeler pedals.

I recently picked up the Lion and took it to my band rehearsal the night I got it because we were doing recording. I set it up how I might set up a 4 input and I was like “wow… it’s there.” I still think real amps are “cool,” but with the price of tubes now and how good this tech is, I have a few tube amps I’m keeping for sentimental reasons but other than that I think I’m going to concentrate on modelers, a power amp and a good sounding cab.

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

In this clip, you can tell the sound is simply the stage volume being pickup up by a few mics, and that's it. Players are happy, and the sound is balanced. It still seems the most natural and organic way to do it and the tones are fantastic, but yes this is 54 years ago.

Yes, but imagine what it sounded like live to the audience. The vocal PA was most likely very weak compared to the guitar amp, and drums were likely not even run thru the PA system except for like kick etc. What you hear on the video is recorded not from like a listener perspective but direct from stage mix and mixed from those.

Live, chances are depending where you stood, you'd have mostly heard just the guitar or whatever.

There are some bands who like to do that even today, which is fine. There was a blues act for instance I saw in a bar....we were sitting at the bar maybe 25yd from the stage and almost didn't realize
the band started. You could just hear some snare knocks and a muffled guitar.

But when you pushed to the front row, it was very good. The guitar was insanely loud in comparison, but the player always backed down for vocals, letting the amp roar between the lyrics mostly. It did sound really good...but only in the very front row center.

It's fine when you play in a venue where everyone can be in front of the stage, and you can really build the stage and amps so that a good portion of the audience hears things well. But in a typical bar....the venues are pretty complex in shape, often the stage is oddly pointed to one side of the bar area/rooms, stages are small...or conversely they're big outdoor venues where the audience watches from 30yd off.

It's just way way easier to run modeled sounds to the PA and spread the sound much father and better across the whole audience. Otherwise you'd have to bring different sized amps for different venues to be heard well, or be at the mercy of the sound guy who will plant a 57 in front of your amp and do what he thinks is good for the sound.

If I had roadies and plenty of time and space on stages and got paid for it, by all means, real amps would be really good.

But they're a luxury and a compromise by now, and even the biggest names are using modeler sounds to PA just for those reasons - a far better audience experience for a far larger part of the audience, and YOU get to control your sounds and use the same sounds as on recording, have like different sounds for each song even with ease, and so on.

 

[Carrera]

If Marshall wants to step into modelling seriously, they need to launch a better or equivalent sounding product as the Universal Audio Lion 68.
They don’t have the know how, so in their place I‘d enter a cooperation with UA and wrap their technology into a nice looking Marshall package.

I say it again, if you talk about modelling, you have to talk about UA.
Products mentioned in this thread like Code, Mustang and so on are all anything but good.
Even Tonex doesn‘t have that real amp response and amp in the room feeling like the UAFX pedals.
Play the Lion with a power amp and a good cab (no FR speaker) and you know what I mean.
No, I‘m not from UA

 

[Spooky88]

I played the scheduled gig last night at the dive bar that I posted about last month concerning our audition. We crushed it and my Marshall JCM900 was everything you could ever hope for how a tube amp should perform live. No need to mic it, just cranked it up and pointed it at the ceiling (short ceiling in that club). The sound dispersed perfectly in the room.That won’t happen with your modeler as you’ll run it through the PA. Tube amps will only die because the next generation of guitar players won’t spend the necessary amount of time to learn to maintain and take care of their equipment. A modeler is easy and convenient, it would seem that’s how our current generation thinks. Taking the path of least resistance.

 

[Milburn S. Emery]

The 90th Willie Nelson b'day show last night showed a lot of amps set up on the stage. I saw only tube amps setup. This was at the Hollywood Bowl. Some but not all were mic'd. Not sure if they went thru the PA system ...One massive 4x12 Marshall cabinet and a bunch of combo Fenders. at least 4 Magnatone , some heads and cabinets....

 

[Milburn S. Emery]

Have to agree with the " Code 100 wasnt done well at all" I had one about 3 years ago and it was terrible. Even my 25 year old Fender 25R with Ragin Cajun 10 inch speaker sounded way better and much much louder. Eventually flogged the Code and went to a full tube amp..much happier

 

[Jon L. Jacobi]

Just my two cents, the CODE is a modeler, and I happen to love it. The factory presets suck and I had packed it up to return it, then I read a message that said to play with the settings first. Glad I read that as it does brown better than anything else I've heard. That said, it's not very versatile, basically British and Fender, no rectifiers, bass or other stuff. I augment it with a Spark Mini, which has its own issues, but has some nice bass and clean stuff.

Note that this is my opinion for recording. Don't love it for live, I'll use tubes for that.

 

[andreio]

Don't understand why it's so hard to bring a 20kg head, a 1x12 cab and a Boss TAE to a gig ... It will always sound and feel better than any modeller.
Ontopic: JMD was an attractive compromise but I don't see why Marshall would release yet another true modeller. Building amps and building software are entirely different areas and FAS and Line6 have decades in advance.
IMO what Marshall should release is an amp with an ERA ( 60s/70s/80s ) switch - and include those specific preamp differences -, builtin attenuator, parallel digital FX and an IR out. Similar to the Studio series but with these additions and maybe even include a full size 100w option.
Marshall owns multiple of the holy grail amps everyone tries to model so they could "easily" release this pimped out portable amp for those who want everything in a box while retaining the feel, the tubes and the authenticity.

 

[thesunship]

I say it again, if you talk about modelling, you have to talk about UA.
Products mentioned in this thread like Code, Mustang and so on are all anything but good.
Even Tonex doesn‘t have that real amp response and amp in the room feeling like the UAFX pedals.
Play the Lion with a power amp and a good cab (no FR speaker) and you know what I mean.
No, I‘m not from UA

I just looked at these, impressive as hell. I love the ruby and maybe I get that next year.... But no Marshall pedal from UA yet?

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Not on topic but....

EVs are better in every way.

I can understand that there are ill-developed parts of the world where there simply aren't enough chargers, but here they are plenty.

You answered your own sort of question.
Not everywhere is "here'.

They are not plenty here. I drive 400km round trip to see my mom. There are NO chargers in between it is a small town in the middle of nowhere prairies Canada.

We have friends we see a good 3 hrs away. Even of there was a charger in between, no one really wants to stop for a half hr to charge batteries.
You have snow and cold winters there. Wanna get stranded with no battery power?
Not me.

 

[Michael Roe]

When the last of the tubes dry up the amp manufacturers can go to building SS power amps with output trannys.
Something like this:

 

[marshallmellowed]

Not on topic but....




You answered your own sort of question.
Not everywhere is "here'.

They are not plenty here. I drive 400km round trip to see my mom. There are NO chargers in between it is a small town in the middle of nowhere prairies Canada.

We have friends we see a good 3 hrs away. Even of there was a charger in between, no one really wants to stop for a half hr to charge batteries.
You have snow and cold winters there. Wanna get stranded with no battery power?
Not me.

Yes, and I guarantee you I can put gas in my car and be on my way faster than sitting and waiting for an EV to charge. Screw that, the EV lovers can have them.

 

[Skull5]

Eh, you realise there's a huge difference between creating 'life' and RNA vs understanding electron flow in a circuit?



Samples? Who said samples?



What's the grand design of electrons passing through a vacuum tube, resistors and capacitors? Or are you implying the complexity _prevents_ greatness?



You're the studio tech and you're worried about 'surviving processing'? If you're at the desk, I guess you need to take a look in the mirror. If not, blame whoever is doing this processing... I'm not sure what you mean by the in-ear thing. IEMs are what they are - monitors, they shouldn't affect anything (except maybe the listener, of course).



But, beg your pardon, wouldn't the inverse hold just as true? Are you perhaps attempting to sell valve amps?

Re; "Life" , Yes, we had a couple semesters of that. But thanks for bringing it up. Re: "Samples", where do you think most of these modelers begin, from scratch? Re; If you have only a loose understanding of complexity, I doubt I can explain it here. Re: "Studio Tech"? You have created a reality of your own, that, no one can help. I am lazily described as a studio musician that did the work for 6 years worth of technical degrees. If you haven't had the experience of historic comparison, you’re on your own. Re; "At the desk", another implication entirely without merit and a provocation, if it is my product, and I do not like the playback, we keep working, that's how the business works. Re; "IEM", you’re stuck on an offhand reference I apparently didn't oversimplify enough. Please forgive me. Re; "Attempting to sell valve amps", that’s too easily done by having a prospective buyer plug in to a mix of many different amps (blind is informative) over a short research time and have them decide before you tell them the price. The percentage of SS amps that sound truly amazing has grown impressively over the last decade or so. Trying to keep this simple, the last day-gig I turned down was working for a Hi-end audio manufacturer (basic entry level stereo power amp only, approx $18K). In that application the precision is not easily described quickly. Back to the original point, a reliance on modelers is a limitation. You get what you play for. Quite finished with this inquiry, now. Enjoy life.

 

[PelliX]

Re: "Samples", where do you think most of these modelers begin, from scratch?

The term 'samples' in this context refers to pre-recorded snippets. That's not what modelers do.

Re: "Studio Tech"? You have created a reality of your own, that, no one can help. I am lazily described as a studio musician that did the work for 6 years worth of technical degrees. If you haven't had the experience of historic comparison, you’re on your own.

I've been involved with this kind of stuff, doing it on the side, professionally and at home in varying degrees since I was teenager. Doesn't really say much, does it. Let's not turn this into a pissing match.

Re; "At the desk", another implication entirely without merit and a provocation, if it is my product, and I do not like the playback, we keep working, that's how the business works.

That wasn't intended as a provocation at all. You suggested that things get done wrong in the studio and outlined that you're well acquainted with the tech and the business. That, to me, implies that you know how avoid over-processing stuff and would indeed disagree if it were done to your work. Makes sense.

You get what you play for.

Lol, if that's a pun, I'm loving it!

 

[V-Type]

Just my two cents, the CODE is a modeler, and I happen to love it. The factory presets suck and I had packed it up to return it, then I read a message that said to play with the settings first. Glad I read that as it does brown better than anything else I've heard. That said, it's not very versatile, basically British and Fender, no rectifiers, bass or other stuff. I augment it with a Spark Mini, which has its own issues, but has some nice bass and clean stuff.

Note that this is my opinion for recording. Don't love it for live, I'll use tubes for that.

Thats true of just about every modeler imo. I've had Zoom 505 all the way up too Kemper. Generally the stock presets benefit greatly from quite a bit of tweaking. The Good tones are there it is just a mater of having the patience with the time involved in trial and error. Where the Code and some other modeler amps fall flat is they generally marry their Decent Digital topology with Anemic at best power amp's.

 

[jojobea]

I'm not going to read the entire threat but for me it all really depends on the size of the gigs you're doing, whether you care about the sound in the room (including at home or the rehearsal space) and whether you get enjoyment out of using real amps. Personally, for small gigs it's not practical to take a head and cab and modellers that go direct to the PA are good enough now that I'm not going to complain about that. Jamming with people or playing at home, I vastly prefer using my tube amp. I've tried the FRFR speakers with modellers as well and while the quality of the sound is good, it still just sounds like I'm playing a recorded sound at high volume. I hate to use the word feel because it's so subjective but there's just something missing.

That said, I'm certain I will have both amps and modellers long into the future. When I take my tube amp (modded JVM 410H) to jam with people using DI modellers they're usually shocked at how good mine sounds and how theirs sounds 'good enough'.

 

[Carrera]

I just looked at these, impressive as hell. I love the ruby and maybe I get that next year.... But no Marshall pedal from UA yet?

This is the Marshall

Lion '68 Super Lead Amp

UAFX Lion '68 Super Lead Amp gives you the most authentic emulations of three late-'60s high-powered British tube plexi heads ever placed in a stompbox.

www.uaudio.de