Amp modelers vs real deal

[junk notes]

I play Fender, Vox, Hiwatt, Ampeg, Laney, and Marshall tube amplifiers and do not know any better.

 

[DaDoc]

I play Fender, Vox, Hiwatt, Ampeg, Laney, and Marshall tube amplifiers and do not know any better.

That's because they don't come any better..

 

[tallcoolone]

While it of course can't possibly come even close to what the high-end modelers do, the end result is basically the same..

Sorry man, but not ignorant, I know exactly what the score is concerning modelers..Just not into using fake sound generators when I have the real deal at hand.

While it is clear that you do believe that you know "the score", I really don't believe you do. I posted clips here and elsewhere of modeling that sounded indistinguishable from a tube amp. Look at my sig, I've got plenty of tube amps. And a $1200 load box/attenuator. And I still use the Helix regularly. You use the right tool for the job. There are no "teams".

If you haven't spent at least a few weeks with one of the top line modelers running through quality full range monitors you really don't have any clue what can be done with this stuff now. Or how fantastic it sounds and feels. The biggest valid drawbacks IMO are the time commitment to get up to speed and the fact that yeah it doesn't look as cool.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

If you think you can tell the difference between your tube amp and a modern modeller modelling that amp, set properly by someone who knows his business, in an ears only comparison, you're probably wrong. They're THAT close.

Plus a modeller has one absolutely HUGE advantage: That modeller allows you to try out authentic sonic models of literally hundreds of classic amps that you could never possibly afford to buy or store unless you are very rich and very dedicated to amp collecting.

Whatever amp I want to play, it's in my Fractal that takes up two rack spaces in my rack. Add two more rack spaces for the power amp, and the rack cabinet it's mounted in, and it's about as portable as a Marshall head. But with hundreds more tones in it.

And if the Fractal should go boobs up, no worries. I just load my presets into another one just like it. So easy.

 

[dro]

You will only know after spending a good portion of you're life and a good portion of you're money on all the different pieces of gear. In the end you'll say to yourself "why didn't I just stick with (xxxx). Could've saved allot of money in the long run. You live and learn. Some can learn from others, some can only learn for themselves. Myself I learned what I think is best and have voted my preference. Arguing it's merit, is useless. As there is always someone out there who is more/less informed.

 

[tallcoolone]

In the end you'll say to yourself "why didn't I just stick with (xxxx)

I will never say this. I love new gear and love finding new ways to make cool sounds.

I want to try and experience as much as I can before ‘the end’ hits lol

 

[DaDoc]

While it is clear that you do believe that you know "the score", I really don't believe you do. I posted clips here and elsewhere of modeling that sounded indistinguishable from a tube amp. Look at my sig, I've got plenty of tube amps. And a $1200 load box/attenuator. And I still use the Helix regularly. You use the right tool for the job. There are no "teams".

If you haven't spent at least a few weeks with one of the top line modelers running through quality full range monitors you really don't have any clue what can be done with this stuff now. Or how fantastic it sounds and feels. The biggest valid drawbacks IMO are the time commitment to get up to speed and the fact that yeah it doesn't look as cool.

"The score" is more than about how close, or even indistinguishable a modeler sounds from the real thing..You can switch on a tube amp through a good array of stompboxes, crank it up and have fun..Real deal..THAT'S rockin!

Or, you can spend a lot of $$ on a top-shelf, modeling gizmo, then add the "full range monitors", then spend a lot of time fiddling around with parameters, databanks and so on and so forth to emulate the sounds of a tube amp..But like I've already said, if that's what gets ya off or you feel like that's what ya need, go for it.

I'm admittedly not into high-tech digital gadgetry, I find it overly complicated, annoying, and boring, and I'm not all that tech savvy anyhoo..Unlike a lot of MFer's here, I didn't grow up with that. I grew up in an era when the only phones were rotory-dial affairs, and computers were something that were only at places like NASA.

And when it comes to stuff like amp modelers I'm admittedly ignorant, but by my own choice..And I didn't spend decades working my ass off with low-paying crap jobs scraping together the $$ to score the great old tube amps I grew up with and love just to chunk them in favor of spending a lot more $$ on some device designed to imitate them..But like I also said, modelers are likely going to be the way of the future, and I'm just an 'ol dinosaur. The closest I ever want to get to high-tech guitar sounds might be a Roland guitar synth!

It's been stated at least a million times that soul is something that's in the hands and heart of a player, and I'll agree with that 100%! But I would add to that tube amps also have soul, and modelers simply don't..And THAT'S the score, at least it's the score for me.

I DO find it uplifting that even after seven days, the poll results are still in favor of tube amps 39 to 5..Given those results it would appear that even if modelers are "just as good", tube amps still rule!

Cheers and rock on..

 

[tallcoolone]

And when it comes to stuff like amp modelers, I'm admittedly ignorant

And really that’s all you need to say. Although you tried to claim otherwise a few days ago, your reasoning being that you had a guitar lesson using an original POD decades ago and of course your very own Microcube:

Sorry man, but not ignorant

Trying to somehow demean certain tools with terms like ‘fake tone generators’ doesn’t do anything outside of PROVING your ignorance on the subject. Wouldn’t it be easier and more constructive to listen to others who have been able to achieve fantastic results rather than calling things you admittedly know nothing about ‘newfangled whiz bang gadgets’ over and over again?

I’m 51, I had a rotary dial phone and I went to school when there was no internet. Doesn’t mean I have to stop trying new things. Sounds dull.

 

[tallcoolone]

I DO find it heartening that after 4-5 days, the poll results are still in favor of tube amps 39 to 5!

It's a loaded question as several have already pointed out. I prefer both, right tool for the job. It's not a "contest"

 

[zachman]

While it is clear that you do believe that you know "the score", I really don't believe you do. I posted clips here and elsewhere of modeling that sounded indistinguishable from a tube amp. Look at my sig, I've got plenty of tube amps. And a $1200 load box/attenuator. And I still use the Helix regularly. You use the right tool for the job. There are no "teams".

If you haven't spent at least a few weeks with one of the top line modelers running through quality full range monitors you really don't have any clue what can be done with this stuff now. Or how fantastic it sounds and feels. The biggest valid drawbacks IMO are the time commitment to get up to speed and the fact that yeah it doesn't look as cool.

I LOVE Fractal, Kemper etc... That said:

I've built and programmed several Fractal rigs, and a couple of Kemper rigs-- for friends and customers. One friend, who loves my Big guitar rig, brought his fractal rig to my shop one day, so he could A/B against 'the real deal'-- lol

So, He sets up his stereo Fractal rig and starts playing, and it sounded great! He asked me to turn on my rig, so I did and handed him the instrument cable to plug into his guitar. He played 2 chords and 3 or 4 notes-- STOPPED, and looked at me and said, "Whoa, my rig doesn't sound like that". I responded, "does it have to?" He said No, but it'd sure be nice. I chuckled a bit.

So then he hands his guitar to one of the kids who worked at my shop, who wanted to check out his fractal gear-- and as he's listening to the kid play guitar, he's just starring at my rig wondering how come it was night and day, not close at all. Here is a pic of the occasion, with my employee smirking at the reality check hitting the guy

 

[Derek S]

I'm on the purists "prefer amps first" list...especially when we're talking stand alone tones, but the thing is, how often is that if you're in a band or record music? Point is, even i admit in a mix/band setting, the modelers really become impossible to spot as a tube amp hiding in disguise.

 

[DaDoc]

And really that’s all you need to say. Although you tried to claim otherwise a few days ago, your reasoning being that you had a guitar lesson using an original POD decades ago and of course your very own Microcube:



Trying to somehow demean certain tools with terms like ‘fake tone generators’ doesn’t do anything outside of PROVING your ignorance on the subject. Wouldn’t it be easier and more constructive to listen to others who have been able to achieve fantastic results rather than calling things you admittedly know nothing about ‘newfangled whiz bang gadgets’ over and over again?

I’m 51, I had a rotary dial phone and I went to school when there was no internet. Doesn’t mean I have to stop trying new things. Sounds dull.

Let me clarify, I have listened to a lot of demos of modeling amps..I'm not that closed-minded.

And admittedly, what I've listened to has been on media such as the internet and music forums, and those were mostly demo sales pitches from modeling amp advocates..The POD is the only thing I've heard in person, and I DID say I was impressed by it..And that was a long time ago as well, I'm quite certain that that modelers are light years ahead of a POD in this day and time.

But as far as my "fake tone generator" statement, I'll stand by that..A modeler is a device designed to produce imitation sounds of tube amps. Therefore fake sounds..Bottom line.

But I'm going to back my ignorant ass out of this conversation, as it's getting about as boring as listening to modeling amp demos..My sincerest apologies if I offended you or anyone else here..Rock on!

 

[tallcoolone]

A modeler is a device designed to produce imitation sounds of tube amps

Like a Tube Screamer

Rock on!

 

[DaDoc]

I LOVE Fractal, Kemper etc... That said:

I've built and programmed several Fractal rigs, and a couple of Kemper rigs-- for friends and customers. One friend, who loves my Big guitar rig, brought his fractal rig to my shop one day, so he could A/B against 'the real deal'-- lol

So, He sets up his stereo Fractal rig and starts playing, and it sounded great! He asked me to turn on my rig, so I did and handed him the instrument cable to plug into his guitar. He played 2 chords and 3 or 4 notes-- STOPPED, and looked at me and said, "Whoa, my rig doesn't sound like that". I responded, "does it have to?" He said No, but it'd sure be nice. I chuckled a bit.

So then he hands his guitar to one of the kids who worked at my shop, who wanted to check out his fractal gear-- and as he's listening to the kid play guitar, he's just starring at my rig wondering how come it was night and day, not close at all. Here is a pic of the occasion, with my employee smirking at the reality check hitting the guyView attachment 74277

Thanks for posting that zachman!

 

[DaDoc]

Like a Tube Screamer

I have a Tube screamer, but I don't care for it..I prefer my BK Butler Tube Driver, which uses a 12AX7.

 

[tallcoolone]

I LOVE Fractal, Kemper etc... That said:

I've built and programmed several Fractal rigs, and a couple of Kemper rigs-- for friends and customers. One friend, who loves my Big guitar rig, brought his fractal rig to my shop one day, so he could A/B against 'the real deal'-- lol

So, He sets up his stereo Fractal rig and starts playing, and it sounded great! He asked me to turn on my rig, so I did and handed him the instrument cable to plug into his guitar. He played 2 chords and 3 or 4 notes-- STOPPED, and looked at me and said, "Whoa, my rig doesn't sound like that". I responded, "does it have to?" He said No, but it'd sure be nice. I chuckled a bit.

So then he hands his guitar to one of the kids who worked at my shop, who wanted to check out his fractal gear-- and as he's listening to the kid play guitar, he's just starring at my rig wondering how come it was night and day, not close at all. Here is a pic of the occasion, with my employee smirking at the reality check hitting the guy

Well, my modelers are always running through either a PA or studio monitors so IMO the only way to do a true a/b would be to run both that way, through identical IRs. On a big stage in a lot of cases your amp is really just a stage monitor for you.

While I’ve played shows with an AXE II running through a power amp (both tube and SS), I’ve never thought it sounded particularly good. Which is why I stopped trying. It’s not a Kemper, something I do not have experience with but is supposed to shine in that application.

 

[anitoli]

Kemper is very careful to not state country of origin in any of their promo pics of their gear. It is not shown on the back panel where it would normally be. Can anyone here with a kemper verify if it really is made in Germany?

 

[zachman]

Well, my modelers are always running through either a PA or studio monitors so IMO the only way to do a true a/b would be to run both that way, through identical IRs. On a big stage in a lot of cases your amp is really just a stage monitor for you.

While I’ve played shows with an AXE II running through a power amp (both tube and SS), I’ve never thought it sounded particularly good. Which is why I stopped trying. It’s not a Kemper, something I do not have experience with but is supposed to shine in that application.

I agree... My rig (12--12's) behind me-- are my monitor, when I'm on my side of the stage anyway. I prefer not to have my guitar through the monitor wedges in front of me
If we'd have done that and run my rig through the PA too, I believe it would have killed his spirit-- at how much wider it made the gap, not closer.

The Kemper is great! A friend who owns a studio bought one on my recommendation and I allowed him to profile my Cameron Atomica NAMM proto-type amp. It was REALLY REALLY close, but not the same-- but I would use it. They're FANTASTIC!!!

This was an outdoor festival headlining to a crowd of 18000. LOUD and fun!!!

As it goes to all this modelers vs... _____ mentality. They are modeling what they do for a reason. The real stuff is the benchmark. They're getting closer and closer but they're still not there. Hell-- the TC Electronic 2290 has a sample rate of 1M. NOTHING else does that... NOTHING (Just one example)

spam jam 2010 pics 007

• zachman
• Jul 2, 2011

 

[tallcoolone]

If we'd have done that and run my rig through the PA too, I believe it would have killed his spirit-- at how much wider it made the gap, not closer.

Very doubtful, but that is an Ultra pictured there correct? I’ve never played Fractal V1 so I guess maybe. I’ve done it dozens of times with the IIXL and with many amps I find I actually prefer the feel of the modeled versions.

I would bet my house no one could discern one of my rigs from the other in a real blind test. Maybe you shouldn’t be getting paid to dial in Fractal rigs lol?

 

[zachman]

Very doubtful, but that is an Ultra pictured there correct? I’ve never played Fractal V1 so I guess maybe. I’ve done it dozens of times with the IIXL and with many amps I find I actually prefer the feel of the modeled versions.

I would bet my house no one could discern one of my rigs from the other in a real blind test. Maybe you shouldn’t be getting paid to dial in Fractal rigs lol?

As long as you're happy w/ your results, nothing else matters... Doubt is understandable, as most guys have ZERO experience with the gear the modelers attempt to emulate, and the closest most have come is seeing pictures in magazines and online.

I don't remember re: the version. But I have put together a few rigs with the Fractals and Kemper. Like I said... I think they're GREAT, but (and it's a substantial one), they're not the same as the innovative gear they attempt to emulate. Kind of a no-brainer, imo

I guarantee if you put your rig and mine next to each other, you'd be able to tell the difference, and if not-- you might consider an ear exam, because everyone else in the room would be able to tell too.

I remember Larry Mitchell coming into my shop and we were talking about his Axe-fx rig. He sounded a lot like you do, so I turned on my rig and by the end, Larry was saying "Damn it, now I need to go play w/ my 2290 rig again".