How well built are the New Silver Jubilees? Anyone seen the electronics? Reliable?

[niazmet]

Might have good tone, but, seeing some sketchy build quality in a few builds.....in some video I have watched.

I assume it relates to Friedmans build at BAD.

This video is bad, I think the guy doesn't understand what he says 100% regarding the amp and the design and what friedman wanted to achieve.

Today a well built amp, correct if I'm wrong, is consisted of (of course) a good design PCB with a thick value, good capacitors and... good wiring/soldering. I dont really think there is nothing more to add. 99% of the process is automated. The same board that is on the Marshall JVM is from the same factory as the DSL20, the difference as with computer motherboards is the quality of the PCB (the material), the thickness of the PCB, the quantity and/or quality of protection features... I think that is about it. The ceramic capacitors debate is interesting and I'll never be able to fully answer but usually the problem with amps and what makes people want to mod them is the fact the engineers chose wrong value for resistors and capacitors in key areas in the board, not that they chose wrong type of capacitors although that happens. Funny enough there are more people who know how to build marshalls on basements than in their headquarters, that is the sad fact of the modern industry. A well build PCB with components is not hard to find, build and assemble, the issue is to offer this in a package with all regulations and offer warranty with large quantities.

Are there motherboard printers/manufacturers in USA? I mean for consumer low level applications. I think all of them comes from Taiwan/China. same for capacitors, they are from asia. MADE IN USA means solder in USA and assembled in USA, where they put all pieces together.

 

[niazmet]

That Friedman video
hard to think the guy is not of bad will. There is not one single thing he says that is reasonable

 

[67mike]

That Friedman video
hard to think the guy is not of bad will. There is not one single thing he says that is reasonable

So the burnt component from the sketchy grade 3 level soldering job is OK in a " top tier " amp?

Also surface mounting the ceramic resistors....which apparently get very hot.....is good design to you???

And the switch being held on with gooped silicone???

 

[niazmet]

So the burnt component from the sketchy grade 3 level soldering job is OK in a " top tier " amp?

Also surface mounting the ceramic resistors....which apparently get very hot.....is good design to you???

And the switch being held on with gooped silicone???

It should be investigated that burnt component that is the only flaw indeed;
regarding the ceramic resistors they are ok they don't generate any heat in that setting. Their design + PCB does not translate to heat
Heatgun + sillicone = nothing unusual to be honest, it sticks to the chassis. I have never paid attention honestly but it seems the silicone gun thing is not "a fix" the thing there but to avoid it being loose eventually. In any case I'll tell you the top tier association with Friedman is because of the price and the price is because it is assembled in USA. It would cost at least 60% less if it was assembled in Vietnam or China. The exact same amp assembled everywhere. I think it's more of a moral choice to give jobs to people in USA for those who want to make that decision based on their hard earned money; for those who have plenty of money price is not relevant, I think. Of course there is no JJ Jr made in China but sooner or later they will have to move production to overseas. Besides, it's mass produced so they have to cut costs every 6 months basically. Or increase price without increasing quality. Things are not stable and will never be even... before I was born. Is Suhr amp worth the price they ask? nah. Are "japanese" (actually they are made elsewhere in asia by japanese plants) capacitors the reason they cost more? No. is the board better? No. It's again the labor cost + 5 year warranty. That Friedman board is nice and clean I think it can be better except for changing a few capacitors for longevity, that is about it.
I think if that guy ever open a Mesa boogie he will freak out. everything is not nice and not clean

 

[67mike]

It should be investigated that burnt component that is the only flaw indeed;
regarding the ceramic resistors they are ok they don't generate any heat in that setting. Their design + PCB does not translate to heat
Heatgun + sillicone = nothing unusual to be honest, it sticks to the chassis. I have never paid attention honestly but it seems the silicone gun thing is not "a fix" the thing there but to avoid it being loose eventually. In any case I'll tell you the top tier association with Friedman is because of the price and the price is because it is assembled in USA. It would cost at least 60% less if it was assembled in Vietnam or China. The exact same amp assembled everywhere. I think it's more of a moral choice to give jobs to people in USA for those who want to make that decision based on their hard earned money; for those who have plenty of money price is not relevant, I think. Of course there is no JJ Jr made in China but sooner or later they will have to move production to overseas. Besides, it's mass produced so they have to cut costs every 6 months basically. Or increase price without increasing quality. Things are not stable and will never be even... before I was born. Is Suhr amp worth the price they ask? nah. Are "japanese" (actually they are made elsewhere in asia by japanese plants) capacitors the reason they cost more? No. is the board better? No. It's again the labor cost + 5 year warranty. That Friedman board is nice and clean I think it can be better except for changing a few capacitors for longevity, that is about it.
I think if that guy ever open a Mesa boogie he will freak out. everything is not nice and not clean

I own a Mark V, have owned an Electra Dyne and Royal Atlantic too.....no gooping silicone on any switches in these Mesa. No sloppy soldering resulting in burnt components either? Yes the Mark V is complicated internally....but with 9 circuits in one chasis, wtf do you expect?

 

[tallcoolone]

Also, Tony shows the guts of all the amps he is reviewing. Something that many find useful and interesting....hence my posting his video.

From Tony himself:

Did you know ...​

"Tony Mckenzie has worked in technology since 1979. Throughout his career he has worked with Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and these days China. In his past he has even part owned a technology manufacturing company based in the far east, so you could say that Tony knows a thing or two about manufacturing techniques of technology products no matter what some manufacturers CEO's might like you to think. I've had some practise with CE and RoHS compliance too"

And now he fishes for clicks on YT by badmouthing gear. That is the most popular video he's had in about a decade.

Maybe he got a lemon. Maybe it was a tampered with return sold as new. Again, if the lower end Friedmans were built like crap and prone to failure, we'd hear about it from more than one 'unboxing' video.

I've seen plenty of "Les Paul's all suck" vids too but I have about $15k invested in mine and I love em. Plenty here own Friedman amps and I've never heard of one QC issue.

 

[tallcoolone]

I own a Mark V, have owned an Electra Dyne and Royal Atlantic too.....no gooping silicone on any switches in these Mesa.

I've owned all three of those amps and I love the MV. As for the other two do yourself a favor and check out a Friedman

 

[anitoli]

Video guy would be better off having a "spot o' tea" and rounding up the other chopstick for a nice hot bowl of ramen.

 

[niazmet]

I own a Mark V, have owned an Electra Dyne and Royal Atlantic too.....no gooping silicone on any switches in these Mesa. No sloppy soldering resulting in burnt components either? Yes the Mark V is complicated internally....but with 9 circuits in one chasis, wtf do you expect?

Speaking of circuits why are Mesa Boogies so complicated internally? why so many circuits? Jez.

 

[tallcoolone]

Speaking of circuits why are Mesa Boogies so complicated internally? why so many circuits? Jez.

I've had most of them and the MV is simply amazeballs. But not at all a simple circuit, which is fine as long as it is done right AFAIC

 

[67mike]

Video guy would be better off having a "spot o' tea" and rounding up the other chopstick for a nice hot bowl of ramen.

Really?

I think it is good that someone shows the guts of every amp they buy and review.

What is the issue with doing that?

 

[anitoli]

Nothing at all wrong with showing a gut shot but this dudes nitpicking is taken to an extreme. He comes across as one of these frugal a-holes that expects 1% tolerance parts and 10000 hour load life ratings and boutique build quality for dollar tree pricing. If you tried to give him a BE100 he'd try to get you to give him $100 to take it cause he'd most certainly find something wrong with it, that's the impression i get sorry.

These guys are why i almost never watch gear reviews, prefer just to buy it and try it myself.

 

[Ufoscorpion]

Oh boy, I wonder what @Ufoscorpion would have to say about this?

Did someone mention my name I do indeed remember the Tony Mctwatass YouTube video with the the JJ jr gut shots . Shameful click baiting of a returned amp he bought discounted . It probably did have a fault with a component ( which can happen ) and was promptly returned to the dealer it was purchased from . The amp was then obviously repaired ( badly ) and sent back out , simple as that . Dave Friedman has stated on more than one occasion that his pcb based amps have way less ‘ issues’ than the hand wired ones as there’s more room for human error with handwired . But with that said Friedman amps are extremely well built using quality components and tbh superior to any Marshall I’ve come across . Nuff said .

 

[PelliX]

I do indeed remember the Tony Mctwatass YouTube video with the the JJ jr gut shots

He tries to tear it apart, but he knocks the amp too hard. There are legitimate concerns like indeed cement resistors flush on the board, a burned component and ... yes, that power switch is a bit of a bodge. It's good that he shows the guts and he's entitled to his opinion. I'll skip commenting on his manner of presenting information...

"Tony Mckenzie has worked in technology since 1979. Throughout his career he has worked with Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and these days China. In his past he has even part owned a technology manufacturing company based in the far east, so you could say that Tony knows a thing or two about manufacturing techniques of technology products no matter what some manufacturers CEO's might like you to think. I've had some practise with CE and RoHS compliance too"

Owning a company doesn't actually mean that you understand any aspect involved in the technical reliability design of the products. One has to take a review like that with a grain of salt when he points at components and refers to them as "those grey thingies there... don't like them much" and so on. Everyone here can point out something they don't like about a given piece of kit, whether it's a Les Paul, a JJ amp or even a simple guitar lead.

regarding the ceramic resistors they are ok they don't generate any heat in that setting. Their design + PCB does not translate to heat

Uh? I don't have the schematic to hand, but those include the cathode resistors and they will get hot. Quite hot, if not friggin' hot. If there wasn't a fair deal of energy involved, one would use smaller (cheaper) resistors instead of higher wattage cement ones. The rectifier *could* also have been elevated a little in my opinion. I've seen all kinds of amps where these designs have caused early failure that could have been prevented quite easily. The ultimate question "is it fair for the price" is up to the customer who buys it. I do appreciate that someone like Tony films the guts for all to see and make up their own mind.

If you buy one of the (if not the) cheapest amps Friedman have to offer - then obviously corners are cut, assembly is as cheap as possible and the resulting product will reflect that. This will apply to many brand that caters to the 'entry level'. MESA for example do not do this. Their designs would probably fall apart like a house of cards if they started cutting corners enough to offer an amp at 1K or whatnot - and I would guess they know this and avoid that. Fender made cheap amps that self-destruct (I have one), Marshall have made cheap amps that had suicidal tendencies, VOX make amps with incredibly "daring" designs - though this has always been their hallmark - and yes, I love VOX's.

Peace.

 

[Ufoscorpion]

He tries to tear it apart, but he knocks the amp too hard. There are legitimate concerns like indeed cement resistors flush on the board, a burned component and ... yes, that power switch is a bit of a bodge. It's good that he shows the guts and he's entitled to his opinion. I'll skip commenting on his manner of presenting information...

Owning a company doesn't actually mean that you understand any aspect involved in the technical reliability design of the products. One has to take a review like that with a grain of salt when he points at components and refers to them as "those grey thingies there... don't like them much" and so on. Everyone here can point out something they don't like about a given piece of kit, whether it's a Les Paul, a JJ amp or even a simple guitar lead.



Uh? I don't have the schematic to hand, but those include the cathode resistors and they will get hot. Quite hot, if not friggin' hot. If there wasn't a fair deal of energy involved, one would use smaller (cheaper) resistors instead of higher wattage cement ones. The rectifier *could* also have been elevated a little in my opinion. I've seen all kinds of amps where these designs have caused early failure that could have been prevented quite easily. The ultimate question "is it fair for the price" is up to the customer who buys it. I do appreciate that someone like Tony films the guts for all to see and make up their own mind.

If you buy one of the (if not the) cheapest amps Friedman have to offer - then obviously corners are cut, assembly is as cheap as possible and the resulting product will reflect that. This will apply to many brand that caters to the 'entry level'. MESA for example do not do this. Their designs would probably fall apart like a house of cards if they started cutting corners enough to offer an amp at 1K or whatnot - and I would guess they know this and avoid that. Fender made cheap amps that self-destruct (I have one), Marshall have made cheap amps that had suicidal tendencies, VOX make amps with incredibly "daring" designs - though this has always been their hallmark - and yes, I love VOX's.

Peace.

 

[Maxbrothman]

That Friedman video
hard to think the guy is not of bad will. There is not one single thing he says that is reasonable

I thought that also until I saw the guts of the same amp model later on and obviously someone had changed some things about the circuit components. So I doubt those changes just happened by coincidence.

Take some screenshots and play spot the difference.

 

[Ufoscorpion]

I thought that also until I saw the guts of the same amp model later on and obviously someone had changed some things about the circuit components. So I doubt those changes just happened by coincidence.

Take some screenshots and play spot the difference.

A much more sensible view of the JJ jr guts . Dave Friedman isn’t one to not ‘ improve ‘ his amps during production ( unlike Marshall who tend to do nothing if an amp has inherent problems from the off ) and there are always several revisions of his amps over time , the one in the vid is probably an in between revisions and modded in house . This is as old guy jamming says not a problem if is done in a solid fashion , which it clearly was . Could possibly have been simply done that way due to parts availability etc during Covid . Would also like to add , that JJ sounded absolutely killer

 

[PelliX]

I'm trying to formulate this in a way that doesn't come across as "defensive" or nitpicking, so bear with me

The points made in the video are perfectly valid;

1) Amp manufacturers do not produce the components that make up the amp.
2) Friedman are investing in customer satisfaction by covering the bill for out-of-repair warranty if known dodgy components fail.

This is very true - fully agree. Every engineer has dealt with ropy batches of parts - and of course the engineer or the manufacturer get the blame most of the time because the customer cannot distinguish the root cause of the failure. Was it badly designed? Did that engineer cut corners? "My amp/car/fridge isn't right, and I paid for a working one, dammit!".

What I was addressing are unnecessarily weak design choices. A solid state bridge rectifier like the one in the JJ will get hot. Those cement resistors will get hot. Combine that with RoHS and perhaps not the best boards in town - there's room for improvement. It's a balance - how much more expensive do you want to make the amp? If you make it cheaper, you risk your reputation, if you make it more expensive you risk losing sales. So in essence you can argue it will be just fine and I can reply with the fact that I would have done it differently - neither of us manufacture the amp.

You can't entirely prevent a bad batch of components, but you can plan around 'daring' designs like high power resistors flush on a board.

unlike Marshall who tend to do nothing if an amp has inherent problems from the off

Hmmm, I see increments in board revisions quite a bit with Marshall. Just recently they addressed the 'loop volume issue' on the SC20 which was a free-of-charge fix and has now become a new board revision. The infamous JCM2000 meltdowns were addressed (I didn't say entirely resolved, eh). The CODE.... eh, ok, never mind

 

[Ufoscorpion]

I'm trying to formulate this in a way that doesn't come across as "defensive" or nitpicking, so bear with me

The points made in the video are perfectly valid;

1) Amp manufacturers do not produce the components that make up the amp.
2) Friedman are investing in customer satisfaction by covering the bill for out-of-repair warranty if known dodgy components fail.

This is very true - fully agree. Every engineer has dealt with ropy batches of parts - and of course the engineer or the manufacturer get the blame most of the time because the customer cannot distinguish the root cause of the failure. Was it badly designed? Did that engineer cut corners? "My amp/car/fridge isn't right, and I paid for a working one, dammit!".

What I was addressing are unnecessarily weak design choices. A solid state bridge rectifier like the one in the JJ will get hot. Those cement resistors will get hot. Combine that with RoHS and perhaps not the best boards in town - there's room for improvement. It's a balance - how much more expensive do you want to make the amp? If you make it cheaper, you risk your reputation, if you make it more expensive you risk losing sales. So in essence you can argue it will be just fine and I can reply with the fact that I would have done it differently - neither of us manufacture the amp.

You can't entirely prevent a bad batch of components, but you can plan around 'daring' designs like high power resistors flush on a board.



Hmmm, I see increments in board revisions quite a bit with Marshall. Just recently they addressed the 'loop volume issue' on the SC20 which was a free-of-charge fix and has now become a new board revision. The infamous JCM2000 meltdowns were addressed (I didn't say entirely resolved, eh). The CODE.... eh, ok, never mind

I recall Dave Friedman discussing pcb board thickness and how thick it needs to be before it’s overkill , his boards sit at the point where any thicker is unnecessary ( in his opinion obviously) . The support and quality and position of the traces is a big factor as well as positioning of potentially hot components , it’s all been considered .

 

[PelliX]

While the thickness plays an important role in the overal stability of the board and may reduce expansion and contraction due to temperature changes, this is a problem that can - to a degree - be mitigated in design so that the board has less stress in the first place. If you mount a bridge rectifier or high power resistors (with significant load) on a PCB, you're effectively using the PCB to dissipate heat. If the board is up to handling that, fine. Do however note that the heat will spread into other potentially less tolerant components. A valve amplifier already tends to run hot by design because of ... eh, valves. There is not only no active ventilation in most, and the chassis is pretty well insulated and isolated. This will - over time - dry out electrolytic capacitors faster and may cause other issues. Generally, the caps or diodes/bridge rectifier are the first to go south. The JJ we're discussing has the bridge rectifier and high power resistors smack dab next to electrolytic capacitors. In fact, it looks like one of the resistors may even be touching a cap. Also note that the BR will be underneath the PCB when the amp head is in its regular position, so the heat will rise and distribute from there. I like to give credit where credit is due and I do appreciate the fact that the dummy load (presuming it is a dummy load) is heat-sinked to the chassis. I absolutely love the plug-in pots - and I'd love to see this on more amps. The modular PCB design is practical from a serviceability point of view and for assembly, so it's a 360 win.

MTBF? Well, I guess the retailers or Friedman themselves would have to answer that. Other manufacturers have used these techniques in similar fashions and it's burned them [pun fully intended here]. Yet, we all have pieces of kit that _should_ have died ages ago and still somehow persist.