JVM and Boss NS-2 X pattern

[SteFowkes]

Hi, got myself a JVM 205h last week and trying to work out the best signal path for my pedal board. Seen loads of posts about the X / 4 Cable method which kind of makes sense but the way I have my channels set up is:

1: Pure clean (green) reverb and loop on.

2: Crunch (red) reverb on loop off.

3: OD (orange) reverb off and loop off.

4: OD (red) reverb off loop on.

Would you not need a permanent loop for the x pattern to work?

The main reason I got a noise gate is to tame it down a little at high volumes, pups are quite hot and have to be careful where im stood playing sudden stop riffs or I get squeals plus a fair bit of hiss anyway.

Don't think I need an overdrive pedal with the gain already in the amp on red mode, tempted to get one to boost the clean and crunches though for other tone options. so I would run that in the loop on NS-2 if boost purchased before the amp, would I need a 2nd NS-2 for the modulation effects in the loop?

Thanks, Ste.

 

[Pat6969]

I use an MXR Smart Gate on the front end to tame the pickup noise. I run out of that to a Decimator G-string that is basically the same as the NS-2. I run that in the X-pattern. Totally kills any noise between riffs.

 

[iron broadsword]

An NS2 even just before the preamp does great. I don't bother with the 4 cable method, and you may find you don't need to either so give it a shot before you do all that math.

 

[bulldozer1984]

The NS2 will more than likely not work with the JVM. I only know of 1 guy out of about 10 that got it to work. I used a G String and it worked great with my 410h

 

[big dooley]

that would be me...
i got the NS2 working in 4 cable method for 5 years now... but the secret to make it work is either a wireless system or an audio isolation transformer between the guitar and the NS2 input

plug the guitar straight into the NS2 in 4cm on anything high gain will yield in an awful squeal... i still don't know what causes this

 

[iron broadsword]

..weird issue! Impedance thing maybe?

 

[big dooley]

maybe... i dunno
i took me a while to realise that an audio isolator transformer was the solution, when i went to the 13-pin stuff and couldn't rely on the wireless anymore

 

[SteFowkes]

Thanks for the replies

Tried hooking it up in the 4 cable method earlier on. Quietend things down on the channels with loop on but soon as i tried 3 on foot switch the hiss was back. Just put it straight in front of the amp and cranked masters to 12 o clock seemed to cope ok and toned it down a fair bit. Guess i will give that a go for now.

Want to keep the signal path as simple as poss so for now thinking of going:

Guitar> tu3> Ns2> JVM then parallel loop out in to
Ce2> ehx mistress> flashback and back in.

If the loop gets noisy might look at a decimator up front then ns2 in the loop?

Soon as the flange and delay show up i will give it a bash.

 

[SteFowkes]

that would be me...
i got the NS2 working in 4 cable method for 5 years now... but the secret to make it work is either a wireless system or an audio isolation transformer between the guitar and the NS2 input

plug the guitar straight into the NS2 in 4cm on anything high gain will yield in an awful squeal... i still don't know what causes this

My gain on the od channel is only at 3 ( around 10/11 o clock)
Using a duncan distortion in bridge. Gets very temperamental at high volumes. Was kinda hoping the ns would help the feeding back a little.

 

[big dooley]

it does, but only in 4 cable method and the loop engaged all the time
for lead playing i use OD2 red with gain on 6, no troubles with hiss or feedback that way
a decimator G-string in 4 cable method seems to work better for most people, to me there is no point in using 2 different gates
the gates on the satriani version work the same as the NS2/G-string in 4 cable method, i was hoping marshall would come out with their gate on a pedalversion, but although santiago says that it would be easy to develop, marshall has no intentions of producing it

 

[SteFowkes]

I see... kind of defeats the appeal of the jvm though for me. Kicking the fx loop in and out with footswitch changes was a big sellin point. For my rythym parts i dont have anything no fx reverb nothing, just od. The way i set it up live i csn hit my footswitch once and all my pre selcted effects come on with no tap dancing. See what i mean? If the ns up front keeps the guitar quiet enough when not playing i guess I'm happy with that.

 

[bulldozer1984]

The best advice i can give is to be quick on your guitar volume knob - shut it down quick when you stop playing to stop the hiss/squeals then you can remove the gate.

 

[big dooley]

Another idea would be to use a masterswitch like the old boss psm5 and keep the loop on all the time... the psm5 is now absolete so it should be easy to get one for dirt cheap on the used market... or simply make your own looperpedal in true bypass fashion

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

Thanks for the replies

Tried hooking it up in the 4 cable method earlier on. Quietend things down on the channels with loop on but soon as i tried 3 on foot switch the hiss was back. Just put it straight in front of the amp and cranked masters to 12 o clock seemed to cope ok and toned it down a fair bit. Guess i will give that a go for now.

Want to keep the signal path as simple as poss so for now thinking of going:

Guitar> tu3> Ns2> JVM then parallel loop out in to
Ce2> ehx mistress> flashback and back in.

If the loop gets noisy might look at a decimator up front then ns2 in the loop?

Soon as the flange and delay show up i will give it a bash.

I see that you are not using any distortion/overdrive pedals between the guitar and amplifier input (these kinds of pedals sometimes introduce noise/hiss into the signal). If the source of noise is not coming from anything between the guitar and amplifier input, then you might not need a noise gate between guitar and amplifier input, which means you don't need to run the NS-2 in an X-pattern, nor do you need to use the NS-2 solely between the guitar and amplifier input.

My gain on the od channel is only at 3 ( around 10/11 o clock)
Using a duncan distortion in bridge. Gets very temperamental at high volumes. Was kinda hoping the ns would help the feeding back a little.

A noise gate/suppressor might help tame your signal before the pickup gets "temperamental," but you may have to be sure that the noise is coming from the pickup. To cut down pickup noise, you need to balance the prose and cons such as noise suppression versus compromise on something such as sustain, tone, etc. Other things you can do include:
1. cut down on your guitar volume at key moments in the song or in between songs (not always practical, but for some it does the trick).
2. lower your amplifier settings (be it MV, ChV, gain, etc.
3. change your body position relative to the amplifier (it sometimes helps but like #1 it might not always be a practical solution, so it depends.
4. introduce shielding into your guitar by applying shielding to the pickup cavity, switching cavity, pickguard (such as on a strat-style guitar, if applicable) and/or any covers (such as on a les paul-style guitar, if applicable).

I see... kind of defeats the appeal of the jvm though for me. Kicking the fx loop in and out with footswitch changes was a big sellin point. For my rythym parts i dont have anything no fx reverb nothing, just od. The way i set it up live i csn hit my footswitch once and all my pre selcted effects come on with no tap dancing. See what i mean? If the ns up front keeps the guitar quiet enough when not playing i guess I'm happy with that.

I gotta say that using a noise gate/noise suppressor in the fx loop and playing with the fx loop on is probably one of the best ways to tame if not kill all amplifier noise in a high gain amp like the JVM410H. In the JVM410H, the preamp can be a big source of noise. If you put a gate in the fx loop, you can tame or even kill all noise before the noisy signal goes to the power amp.

If you use high gain and high volume settings, most preamp noise will still be audible if you ONLY use one noise gate/noise suppressor between the guitar and amplifier input even if you turn the volume all the way down. Why? Because the noise gate is only really working to kill noise before the signal arrives at the preamp section. But because the preamp section is still feeding some signal to the power amp section, you can still hear things like amplifier "hiss" even though your guitar volume is turned down to zero and you have a noise gate/suppressor turned on between the guitar and amplifier input. If you incorporate a noise gate/suppressor in the amplifier effects loop, you can tame or completely killing the preamp noise (such as hiss) that is usually (but not always) prevalent in high gain amps.

I have a stock 410H sounds great. I rarely have a need to use lots of gain or volume (be it channel volume or MV), so noise isn't too big a deal in general. But when I need more gain and/or volume, so I use a noise in the loop. Whether I play with the loop on all the time depends on the song (e.g. if there are no dramatic pauses in a riff or quiet intro, then there's probably no need to use the fx loop all the time for that song). In between songs, I just change my 410H to quieter channel/mode. But, I also use the NS-2 between the guitar and amplifier input to help quiet down tame some pickups in some guitars I use. So yes, I use two separate noise gates/suppressors, but that's what works for me. The noise gate I use in the loop is built-into my multi-effects system, so it's convenient and solves the noise coming from the preamp when I dial in high gain and/or high volume.

 

[SteFowkes]

Another idea would be to use a masterswitch like the old boss psm5 and keep the loop on all the time... the psm5 is now absolete so it should be easy to get one for dirt cheap on the used market... or simply make your own looperpedal in true bypass fashion

I wouldn`t know where to start. haha. got rehearsal sunday so will see how it goes up in front . might double check my guitar wiring too. make sure its not a ground issue.

 

[SteFowkes]

I see that you are not using any distortion/overdrive pedals between the guitar and amplifier input (these kinds of pedals sometimes introduce noise/hiss into the signal). If the source of noise is not coming from anything between the guitar and amplifier input, then you might not need a noise gate between guitar and amplifier input, which means you don't need to run the NS-2 in an X-pattern, nor do you need to use the NS-2 solely between the guitar and amplifier input.



A noise gate/suppressor might help tame your signal before the pickup gets "temperamental," but you may have to be sure that the noise is coming from the pickup. To cut down pickup noise, you need to balance the prose and cons such as noise suppression versus compromise on something such as sustain, tone, etc. Other things you can do include:
1. cut down on your guitar volume at key moments in the song or in between songs (not always practical, but for some it does the trick).
2. lower your amplifier settings (be it MV, ChV, gain, etc.
3. change your body position relative to the amplifier (it sometimes helps but like #1 it might not always be a practical solution, so it depends.
4. introduce shielding into your guitar by applying shielding to the pickup cavity, switching cavity, pickguard (such as on a strat-style guitar, if applicable) and/or any covers (such as on a les paul-style guitar, if applicable).



I gotta say that using a noise gate/noise suppressor in the fx loop and playing with the fx loop on is probably one of the best ways to tame if not kill all amplifier noise in a high gain amp like the JVM410H. In the JVM410H, the preamp can be a big source of noise. If you put a gate in the fx loop, you can tame or even kill all noise before the noisy signal goes to the power amp.

If you use high gain and high volume settings, most preamp noise will still be audible if you ONLY use one noise gate/noise suppressor between the guitar and amplifier input even if you turn the volume all the way down. Why? Because the noise gate is only really working to kill noise before the signal arrives at the preamp section. But because the preamp section is still feeding some signal to the power amp section, you can still hear things like amplifier "hiss" even though your guitar volume is turned down to zero and you have a noise gate/suppressor turned on between the guitar and amplifier input. If you incorporate a noise gate/suppressor in the amplifier effects loop, you can tame or completely killing the preamp noise (such as hiss) that is usually (but not always) prevalent in high gain amps.

I have a stock 410H sounds great. I rarely have a need to use lots of gain or volume (be it channel volume or MV), so noise isn't too big a deal in general. But when I need more gain and/or volume, so I use a noise in the loop. Whether I play with the loop on all the time depends on the song (e.g. if there are no dramatic pauses in a riff or quiet intro, then there's probably no need to use the fx loop all the time for that song). In between songs, I just change my 410H to quieter channel/mode. But, I also use the NS-2 between the guitar and amplifier input to help quiet down tame some pickups in some guitars I use. So yes, I use two separate noise gates/suppressors, but that's what works for me. The noise gate I use in the loop is built-into my multi-effects system, so it's convenient and solves the noise coming from the preamp when I dial in high gain and/or high volume.

No drive pedal as yet, not convinced I need one. the od orange has mountains of gain (like I say mines only on 3-4 and still heavy as hell) is tight enough and clear but still brutal enough for the metal we play. I boost the lead parts using master2 on od red. there`s a fair bit of palm muted riffs and few sudden stop start riffs. problems are in the practice room, but we have a bigger room sunday so can try putting a little more distance between me and the amp.

doesn`t help when our other guitarist kranks his amp and I have to push the master up to level out.

I only ran my ce2 in the loop last rehearsal and didn't cause any problems as such, neither did I have my ns2 but master was only at 6 with occasional squeals, will see how things go sunday. will put the ns up front and the chorus and delay in the loop.

 

[Pat6969]

I owned a 210H and you NEED a gate out front and one in the loop. I highly recommend you look at the ISP decimator. Either go with 2 Decimator II pedals linked together or the Decimator G String. Both ways will use your guitars input signal to control the opening and closing of the gate in the loop. This is important as the amount of loop hiss will keep the loop gate open if there is nothing to control it`s closure. Look on the ISP site on how to accomplish this. It`s super easy and you will thank me later, you`ll have absolute silence in between chugs!!

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

The amplifier "hiss" that's probably being described is most probably coming from the preamp and the gain and/volume settings being used. As I said before, you can best control this "hiss" by sticking a noise gate/suppressor in the fx loop, which lies between the preamp and power amp section in the JVM410, specifically.

Using your guitar volume to try to control this amp "hiss" is futile because the noise is most probably coming from the preamp, not the guitar, as someone seem to allude. Turn the guitar volume all the way down and you will still hear the "hiss" for the reasons stated above. Also, by sticking a noise gate/suppressor in the effect loop, you might also be able to control some of those "squeals" but I strongly believe that "squeals" occur for one or even a combination of reasons (poor pickup design, low output pickups, conflicting amplifier settings, physical proximity to the amplifier, etc.) and so it might be an adjustment or a simply change of some kind to control squeals.

I don't like the way the ISP Decimator or ISP G-String pedal respond, which is due to the design and control options (or lack thereof) given to the player (I once liked them very much but not anymore for the reasons that will follow. In the ISP Decimator and ISP G-String, the player is given only one parameter to control-the threshold. But what is missing from Decimator and G-String pedals is the ability to control other parameters of attenuation, such as the "decay time" (in other units it might be called "release time" or something else, but in a units like the Boss NS-2, it is called "decay"). Why is control over "decay" important? "Decay" has the opposite function of the threshold. The "decay" in noise gates/suppressors like the NS-2 allows the player to control how the gate will "close" in relation to whatever you're trying to attenuate/cut down/cut off; the threshold control allows the player to choose how the gate will "open" in relation to qualities the player wants to be heard. Pedals like the ISP Decimator and G-String only allow player control over the threshold setting, but not the "decay". The designers of the Decimator and G-String instead decided to assign a fixed ratio of "decay" to the threshold settings chosen by the player. When you can't control attenuation elements (i.e. decay time/release time/etc.), you have players complaining about things such as loss of sustain and/or the cutting-off of notes. While the Boss NS-2 is not the best noise gate/noise suppressor ever, for me it is a better solution than the ISP Decimator or G-String, specifically.

Today, I'm more of a fan of digital noise gates that allow parameters to be saved to individual presets, but I still insist on control over at least two parameters for a device to be useful to me: threshold and "decay". TC Electronic G-System, G Major, and G-Force offer multiple parameter control of the noise gate; Line 6 POD HD PRO X, POD HD500X, as well as some of the discontinued systems also offer control of multiple parameters. In my effects loop I use the discontinued Line 6 Floor POD Plus which allow me to two options: threshold control with preset decay time ratio, or independent threshold and independent decay time-the best of both world from a very inexpensive unit! Additionally, I can set different noise gate parameter to presets without having to make adjustments on the fly or in between songs/sets.

Maybe you don't like multi-effects systems or rack systems, but they're always an option for future use. I'm sure you can find noise gates that offer you more control over parameters than the Decimator or G-String, but if you like what those pedals have to offer and it gets the job done, then that's what's most important.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[Pat6969]

The amplifier "hiss" that's probably being described is most probably coming from the preamp and the gain and/volume settings being used. As I said before, you can best control this "hiss" by sticking a noise gate/suppressor in the fx loop, which lies between the preamp and power amp section in the JVM410, specifically.

Using your guitar volume to try to control this amp "hiss" is futile because the noise is most probably coming from the preamp, not the guitar, as someone seem to allude. Turn the guitar volume all the way down and you will still hear the "hiss" for the reasons stated above. Also, by sticking a noise gate/suppressor in the effect loop, you might also be able to control some of those "squeals" but I strongly believe that "squeals" occur for one or even a combination of reasons (poor pickup design, low output pickups, conflicting amplifier settings, physical proximity to the amplifier, etc.) and so it might be an adjustment or a simply change of some kind to control squeals.

I don't like the way the ISP Decimator or ISP G-String pedal respond, which is due to the design and control options (or lack thereof) given to the player (I once liked them very much but not anymore for the reasons that will follow. In the ISP Decimator and ISP G-String, the player is given only one parameter to control-the threshold. But what is missing from Decimator and G-String pedals is the ability to control other parameters of attenuation, such as the "decay time" (in other units it might be called "release time" or something else, but in a units like the Boss NS-2, it is called "decay"). Why is control over "decay" important? "Decay" has the opposite function of the threshold. The "decay" in noise gates/suppressors like the NS-2 allows the player to control how the gate will "close" in relation to whatever you're trying to attenuate/cut down/cut off; the threshold control allows the player to choose how the gate will "open" in relation to qualities the player wants to be heard. Pedals like the ISP Decimator and G-String only allow player control over the threshold setting, but not the "decay". The designers of the Decimator and G-String instead decided to assign a fixed ratio of "decay" to the threshold settings chosen by the player. When you can't control attenuation elements (i.e. decay time/release time/etc.), you have players complaining about things such as loss of sustain and/or the cutting-off of notes. While the Boss NS-2 is not the best noise gate/noise suppressor ever, for me it is a better solution than the ISP Decimator or G-String, specifically.

Today, I'm more of a fan of digital noise gates that allow parameters to be saved to individual presets, but I still insist on control over at least two parameters for a device to be useful to me: threshold and "decay". TC Electronic G-System, G Major, and G-Force offer multiple parameter control of the noise gate; Line 6 POD HD PRO X, POD HD500X, as well as some of the discontinued systems also offer control of multiple parameters. In my effects loop I use the discontinued Line 6 Floor POD Plus which allow me to two options: threshold control with preset decay time ratio, or independent threshold and independent decay time-the best of both world from a very inexpensive unit! Additionally, I can set different noise gate parameter to presets without having to make adjustments on the fly or in between songs/sets.

Maybe you don't like multi-effects systems or rack systems, but they're always an option for future use. I'm sure you can find noise gates that offer you more control over parameters than the Decimator or G-String, but if you like what those pedals have to offer and it gets the job done, then that's what's most important.

Hope some of this helps.

I'll will agree with you on the regular Decimator(or any stand alone gate) but I'll have to respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the G-String. Since the G-String is using the guitar input signal as it's reference to open and close the gate, the sustain and decay rate is only limited by the signal present from the guitar. It is not "artificially" employing a decay rate, it's using the natural signal from the guitar. The gate only closes when there is zero signal present. I can't imagine a better way to control the gate. The new Decimator II pedals have a 1/8" jack that allows them to be linked together to yield even better results, a gate out front controlling the loop gate, very similar to the rack unit.

 

[big dooley]

I'll will agree with you on the regular Decimator(or any stand alone gate) but I'll have to respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the G-String. Since the G-String is using the guitar input signal as it's reference to open and close the gate, the sustain and decay rate is only limited by the signal present from the guitar. It is not "artificially" employing a decay rate, it's using the natural signal from the guitar. The gate only closes when there is zero signal present. I can't imagine a better way to control the gate. The new Decimator II pedals have a 1/8" jack that allows them to be linked together to yield even better results, a gate out front controlling the loop gate, very similar to the rack unit.

first of all, be it the NS2, the decimators and even the noise gate circuit marshall has build into the 2203KK YJM100 and the JVM satriani, they're actually not noise gates... they're expanders
an expander does the exact opposite of what a compressor does.... below its treshold point it makes anything that is loud, louder and quiet, quieter

i'm with you, that when a 4 cable method is being used, where the clean signal from the guitar triggers the opening and closing of the gate (to name it) a decay control is not really needed...
in fact santiago told me that he found the NS2's decay too long, even when set at minimum... but then again, i know what kind of guitarist he is (a bloody good one for that matter)
the design he came up with works bloody well as i've witnessed on my bandmates YJM...
for a gate being placed in the loop only i understand midway's point of view though... a decay control will help then