Sozo caps on Vintage Modern

[TwinACStacks]

HA! I might not have been born/raised in the south but y'all better believe southern runs in my blood and is where 1/2 my family originated from.

Jon's two Uncles were in the Pig scene from "Deliverance"....


TWIN

 

[bullybuster]

It's like this, fellas. I read this thread because I'm a VM owner. Thought I might find a friendly forum to share some info and experiences. Seeing your reaction to the OP's enthusiasm and passion for Marshall tone, I'm joining just long enough to let you know that the lazy, domineering forum bully is by far the worse offense. And, true to the stereotype, there's the bully, and there's his sidekick. Can you pick these two boys out? Unfortunately, they're as common as crap, and you can smell 'em a mile away. Don't bother replying - I'm gone for good.

 

[40watter]

After coming back to this ancient thread I started so long ago, it really cracks me up. I view the internet the same as my jobs. I don't go to work to make friends, if I do, I consider it a bonus. I post only for information purposes.

Sozo caps are widely used by so many making stellar amps. I don't know how to make an amp, but my ears know difference in dynamic sounds. These caps absolutely will improve your VM beyond what you thought possible. It's like getting mad at the mention of Mercury Magnetics just because their reputation has put them at top of list for many.

Use info to craft your best sound n equipment. Anybody who don't like my post can suck nut.

 

[TwinACStacks]

Well now. There You have it.

TWIN

 

[MKB]

After coming back to this ancient thread I started so long ago, it really cracks me up. I view the internet the same as my jobs. I don't go to work to make friends, if I do, I consider it a bonus. I post only for information purposes.

Sozo caps are widely used by so many making stellar amps. I don't know how to make an amp, but my ears know difference in dynamic sounds. These caps absolutely will improve your VM beyond what you thought possible. It's like getting mad at the mention of Mercury Magnetics just because their reputation has put them at top of list for many.

Use info to craft your best sound n equipment. Anybody who don't like my post can suck nut.

Somehow I missed this thread first time around. Being a big fan of both the Vintage Modern and Sozos, it is very interesting. Tell you what though; IMHO my Vintage Modern sounds so good stock, I don't want to touch it. I was even nervous to take the chassis out of the wood for months (finally did and checked the bias, it was spot on). It was improved with NOS British and US preamp tubes (helped with clarity and smoothness).

I'd probably drop some Sozos in it if it really needed it, but to my ears it doesn't have any of the problems that Sozos can fix. Wish I could play one with Sozos though, would be an interesting comparison.

 

[TwinACStacks]

I use Vintage Sozos on everything, even ham sandwiches.


Be a good chap and pass the Grey Poupon, *sniff-sniff*...

TWIN

 

[redscott131]

You guys still beating up 40watter?

I always thought the SOZOs were for older style circuits such as the NMV Marshalls.......but who really knows.

Twin.......do you still have/use your SOZO & Silver Mica - 2204 amp? http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/22999-best-marshall-you-heard-2010-a.html

 

[chadjwil]

Red, I think you have it all wrong, these 15 or so caps that you think are Sozo are clearly Ozos...big differece bro! Ozos caps are much less fruity than Sozo and have an oaky nose with a much more earthy finish.

Can this please be the end of all this bullshit now?

Sparty On, Red!!!

 

[dorrisant]

mr. wilder,
just looking at your signature shows how much of a pompous windbag you truely are. you are so stuck on your ideas and concepts that you can't allow your customers to make choices? what if i was your customer? i guarantee you i could ask some not so stupid questions. not that it really affects what i do from day to day, but you are burning someone nonetheless... could possibly be a potential customer but very doubtful after you torch them in front of everybody.
i think the reason you don't offer some of those things is that maybe they are too much for you to implement into your own (?) designs. there are some boutique builders around who offer whatever the customer wants... you may have to take the fine details out of their hands, and guide them with parameters but they usually come back when they feel like they have gotten what they wanted the last time they dealt with the builder/tech. i am one of these builders. i build what the customers want, usually one of my circuits with whatever add-ons they want. seems a very different than your brute-force tactic. besides, if they want an amp where they have no design choice, why not just go to guitar center and pick out the amp that has the features they want... people have done this for years. what makes your limited circuits so special? i can't even see your website right now so i cant really tell. i will check back later just out of curiosity.
as far as sozo caps are concerned... have you ever built two amps with identical circuits, one with sozos and one with whatever caps you usually use? i doubt it? the original poster at least had the opportunity to sample the original caps as opposed to just the sozos... and i'm not surprised he heard a difference and would recommend them. i don't think you have even tried them. maybe so but you seem too stuck on your opinion of what is best. i say this too, there are more amps out there that could have a noticeable increase in beautiful tone by subbing in the exact same values of sozos that are in them now. and i speak from experience. i have an amp right now that has all sozos in the signal path. i would be willing to bet that it sounds better than anything you have built. i would be willing to meet up with you and and let a group of people decide. i have had numerous players ( at least 5, and the amp is only 1 1/2 months old... many players to come) with an average of 30 years experience each that have said this is the best amp they have ever heard, period. i guess they are all just stupid and i should tell them all that on your behalf.
i have read reliable reports that eric johnson can tell what brand of batteries you put in his effects. i couldn't tell what battery is what that way, but i do hear a difference with the sozo caps in MOST applications. (and yes they do change over a break-in period... up to 100 hrs sometimes. it can be a shocking difference sometimes... so much so that you can tell by recording from one day to the next with the exact same amp settings. i have repeatedly heard this change enough to testify to those of you who wonder, they absolutely do change while forming.) at the same time, there are applications where any difference was subtle if at all, but i would rather know that i have put the best component in that spot. even if there is no perceivable difference to you or me there might be something there that is very noticeable to someone else's ears. ken fischer used to tune all of his amps by ear and said that there were things going on in his ears that would not show up on a scope. are you really going to call that bull? you even claim that if people are calling you for an amp it is because it SOUNDS good to them... not "looks so beautiful on a scope." i have learned that a scope is good for some things but sometimes your ears will make a liar of that same scope.
those people contacting you with "dumb" add-ons are probably just trying to improve your amp... not that it is bad to begin with, but if your customers are asking for things you are not doing, maybe they are in essence opening wider the door of opportunity. are you so sure of yourself that you don't need to learn anything new? or are you just too tired of learning or not capable of it? i don't think so, but there is a point to be made: if you and i both built the same amp, i would sell more than you simply because of a difference in attitude. maybe you treat your customers better than the original poster. maybe your customers should see how you can be toward what is supposed to be your peers. are you gonna pick on me? this is MY FIRST post on this forum... i could show you just how much that doesn't matter.
i know you are not an idiot... but even geniuses can come off as assholes sometimes.
the offer stands... the gauntlet has been thrown down.
contact me if you like, we could set something up. just a warning though, prepare to eat crow, its usually ok with barbecue sauce.
btw... i use sozos as my default caps, others are used upon request, even though I DON'T LIKE THEM!
the customer is always right, RIGHT?!?
tony

 

[famousmockingbird]

I didn't read all the posts (come on theres only 4 pages) but I do see a lot of places on the web advertise that sozos are the ultimate upgrade for Marshalls. I think when I recapped mine I used vishay/sprague polyester film.

LETS BUILD A REAL AMP THAT IS DIRECT COUPLED AND END THIS DISCUSSION LOL!

 

[Jonathan Wilder]

mr. wilder,
just looking at your signature shows how much of a pompous windbag you truely are. you are so stuck on your ideas and concepts that you can't allow your customers to make choices? what if i was your customer? i guarantee you i could ask some not so stupid questions. not that it really affects what i do from day to day, but you are burning someone nonetheless... could possibly be a potential customer but very doubtful after you torch them in front of everybody.
i think the reason you don't offer some of those things is that maybe they are too much for you to implement into your own (?) designs. there are some boutique builders around who offer whatever the customer wants... you may have to take the fine details out of their hands, and guide them with parameters but they usually come back when they feel like they have gotten what they wanted the last time they dealt with the builder/tech. i am one of these builders. i build what the customers want, usually one of my circuits with whatever add-ons they want. seems a very different than your brute-force tactic. besides, if they want an amp where they have no design choice, why not just go to guitar center and pick out the amp that has the features they want... people have done this for years. what makes your limited circuits so special? i can't even see your website right now so i cant really tell. i will check back later just out of curiosity.
as far as sozo caps are concerned... have you ever built two amps with identical circuits, one with sozos and one with whatever caps you usually use? i doubt it? the original poster at least had the opportunity to sample the original caps as opposed to just the sozos... and i'm not surprised he heard a difference and would recommend them. i don't think you have even tried them. maybe so but you seem too stuck on your opinion of what is best. i say this too, there are more amps out there that could have a noticeable increase in beautiful tone by subbing in the exact same values of sozos that are in them now. and i speak from experience. i have an amp right now that has all sozos in the signal path. i would be willing to bet that it sounds better than anything you have built. i would be willing to meet up with you and and let a group of people decide. i have had numerous players ( at least 5, and the amp is only 1 1/2 months old... many players to come) with an average of 30 years experience each that have said this is the best amp they have ever heard, period. i guess they are all just stupid and i should tell them all that on your behalf.
those people contacting you with "dumb" add-ons are probably just trying to improve your amp... not that it is bad to begin with, but if your customers are asking for things you are not doing, maybe they are in essence opening wider the door of opportunity. are you so sure of yourself that you don't need to learn anything new? or are you just too tired of learning or not capable of it? i don't think so, but there is a point to be made: if you and i both built the same amp, i would sell more than you simply because of a difference in attitude. maybe you treat your customers better than the original poster. maybe your customers should see how you can be toward what is supposed to be your peers.
i know you are not an idiot... but even geniuses can come off as assholes sometimes.
the offer stands... the gauntlet has been thrown down.
contact me if you like, we could set something up. just a warning though, prepare to eat crow, its usually ok with barbecue sauce.
btw... i use sozos as my default caps, others are used upon request, even though I DON'T LIKE THEM!
the customer is always right, RIGHT?!?
tony

No, it's called I know what works and what doesn't. I know how amps actually work. I believe in the science behind them...not supposed mystique, m0j0z and v00d00z. I deal with customers all the time who read something on the internet and think they know more than you do about how an amp works all because they read it on the internet therefore it must be true. I literally get sick and tired of dealing with people who cannot be convinced even when you have the science and the hard factual data to back up what you tell them all because their favorite guru who built 1,000 amps last month for some big name artist who can't even apply Ohm's or Watt's Law much less read a schematic told them different.

McDonalds does not make a better hamburger than your mom just because they make more of them.

My ethics keep me from selling things to customers that I know won't have the effect that the customer thinks it will. I refuse to build and sell "fairy tale amplifiers".

Furthermore, unlike most boutique builders who specialize in pleasing everyone, I cater to a very selective market...80s rock/metal high gain. It's what I love and it's the reason why I started building amps in the first place.

It's funny how those of us who have been there/done that and have the knowledge/experience to back it up always get accused of being pompous assholes. Why is this? Because customers don't like learning that they're wrong. Customers get ideas that have already been done and have either been proven wrong, pointless, impractical or otherwise. Moreover, when I build an amp for a customer, I wanna build it right the first time, send it to the customer, have them be happy right out the gate, and never see the amp again. Not build an amp, then have a customer repeatedly bringing the amp back to change things all because I sold him something I knew wouldn't work from minute one and informed the customer that it wouldn't work or have the effect that they thought it would. I'm a productive builder...I build amps that work right out the gate, and constantly having the same amp repeatedly come back time and again all because the customer wants things that I know don't work or are impractical, pointless or otherwise becomes a fucking annoyance from hell.

I have no idea who the fuck you think you are, but you may wanna rethink the way you come onto forums and make your first impressions.

 

[Purgasound]

. i am one of these builders. i build what the customers want, usually one of my circuits with whatever add-ons they want.

Is that a Ceriatone board up in your avatar?

 

[Jonathan Wilder]

i am one of these builders. i build what the customers want, usually one of my circuits with whatever add-ons they want.

And are you a "builder" or are you just an "assembler"? There is a difference and if you don't know what the difference is that pretty much answers my question.

And for the record...if the customer were always right, wouldn't they be designing/building their own amplifiers rather than hiring us builders to do it for them?

 

[chadjwil]

Someone's getting an asswhoopin by the monkeybars after school today!

 

[dorrisant]

jon,
first of all, i said pompous windbag... not asshole. just wanted to clear that up. i still mean it though. i am a designer and builder... no kits. and no that is not a cieratone board. it is a handmade preamp board.
i didn't realize that you were so stuck in your ways, in that you only deal with 80's metal amps. i'm sorry... about that anyway. i can build an amp from scratch that will deliver most likely the best clean tone YOU have ever heard... and when you crank it, it bares its teeth. all on one channel. or two channels if you like... or three... with "power scaling", external bias points, preamp out, power amp in, reverb, tremelo, etc. do i need this on my amp? not really. is there anything wrong with building one with all the features you can think of? absolutely not. you don't have to play the amps that you build for customers but for a very short time. so why do you care... it's not about what you want. it's supposed to be about what the customer wants. you have your clientele and i have mine. my amps don't come back, or go anywhere else for that matter, they already have what they want when they leave. your customers probably do have their amps modded to get what they want, but you might never know because you call them "dumb" for even asking in the first place.
you are very comfortable here at this forum... hanging out with your old cronies. that's all fine and good but there is no reason to blast someone because they don't follow your protocol on how to post. you are not the admin... so what you say is just opinion as much as a newbie... not the rules we all must follow so as not to incur your wrath. i think you understand by now that i know "just who in the f**k i am", and i will not take any advise from you, let alone let you dictate how to post. not your job.
times change... people have perfected some of these dumb add-ons to the point where many people looking for a new amp are aware of possible options. yes, they see things on the internet and ask if they can have that too. i already stated that you have to take some of the details away from them and guide them with parameters, but you don't have to always tell them no either. i don't doubt that you build great amps, but you seem to build them one way... your way. back to the original post... if you haven't tried sozo caps, then he is not asking you... seems like you should rethink the way you reply to posts! and from the sounds of it, the way you treat your customers. if you don't like their questions, send them to me. i can probably make them happier.
too many people want to ramble on in front of the newbies, like they are compensating for something...hmm? in case you haven't noticed, you didn't help with the original post. why don't you take a back seat the next time something is posted that you don't understand. if you stifle those antsy typing fingers long enough you may just learn something from someone who actually does know about what they are talking about. isn't that the whole point of these forums. this is not your private club.

tony

 

[dorrisant]

Jon,
A question for you: have you ever used sozo caps in one of your builds? If not, then you should probably let someone who knows about them to answer the question, because they might know more about them.
If you let the customer make some of the design decisions (within your parameters) they tend to feel like they are more of a part of it, which I have found gives good results. So yes, the customer and the builder/designer can both be quite happy. Maybe not in your case. You seem to have issues with both happiness and communication.

Tony

 

[dorrisant]

Also, most amp buyers would jump at the chance to have some design input, or jump to another builder who would allow them to.

Tony

 

[Jonathan Wilder]

Jon,
A question for you: have you ever used sozo caps in one of your builds? If not, then you should probably let someone who knows about them to answer the question, because they might know more about them.

I've probably built more amps with Sozo caps than any other caps out there (as a matter of fact, Joey Voltage and Lane Sparber have referred to me as "Sozo Boy" quite a bit in the past). Pretty much all of the Super Lead clones I've built use them. They're great caps...no doubt about it. However, in my high gain circuits I've used both Sozo as well as Mallory 150s in the same circuit, and the difference between the two isn't a difference that will make or break the tone of the amp nor is it even worth mentioning when it comes to playing with a live band. In my high gain circuit, they're damn near identical tone-wise.

If you let the customer make some of the design decisions (within your parameters) they tend to feel like they are more of a part of it, which I have found gives good results. So yes, the customer and the builder/designer can both be quite happy. Maybe not in your case. You seem to have issues with both happiness and communication.

Tony

No...I have an issue with customers who think they know more than the tech. There's a huge difference.

There are customers who will read something online, then ask the tech about it and when the tech presents the information with hard scientific data to back up or dispel what the customer read, and naturally the hard scientific data overrules and makes more sense so the customer is able to accept it.

Then there are those customers who read something on the internet, automatically take it as the gospel, bring it up to the tech, the tech dispels what the customer read as pure myth and has the scientific data to back it up, and the customer basically in not so many words tells the tech that he's full of shit because what they read came from "so and so" and so and so has built 100s of amps for such and such so therefore what so and so says overrides all scientific laws. Either that or the myth version sounds cooler to say than the hard scientific data that disproves it so the customer is more inclined to believe the fairy tale over rock solid non-disputable fact. It is this second group of customers who I would rather not deal with, and who my signature is aimed at.

Truth be known that most people who claim to want power valve overdrive don't even know what the hell power valve overdrive even is, let alone how to utilize it along with its limitations. It's a completely different world than playing through amps designed for high gain preamp overdrive. Once most learn of the limitations of power valve overdrive they don't like it all of a sudden. More over, they quickly learn that the sound of power valve overdrive is not the super high gain sound that they think it is, but is more of a "classic" sounding overdrive. They just hear the words "power valve overdrive" and because of how cool it sounds to say it, they think that that's what they want, when in reality the sound they want is the high gain preamp overdrive with super tight/punchy low end.

To top it all off, most of these customers don't even realize the limitations of the human ear itself and are unable to accept the fact that our ears hear differently at different volumes, the conditions of the acoustic listening environment also contribute, they cannot play like the artist that they're trying to emulate the tone of, etc etc. If something doesn't sound right, they automatically blame the amp and the gear everytime. Again, not the kind of people I want to deal with.

You as a builder I am sure have had your share of customer types that you'd much rather not deal with. We all have...and unfortunately I have reached the point where I refuse to deal with pushy customers who think they know more than the tech, hence the reason for my signature. It's my way of letting the general public know what customer types I refuse to deal with. I lack the time and the patience to deal with those types.

In regards to my refusal to install external bias test/adjust points and/or external switches to switch between valve types, etc etc...that's because these things are electrical things on the amp that are way to easy for someone who has no clue what they're doing to fuck up. I cannot warranty an amplifier when things that shouldn't be within easy access to a non-tech are within easy access to a non-tech. I don't see how anyone COULD warranty an amp with those kinds of things. I won't even make the mains voltage switchable for obvious reasons. There are way too many people who think that if something is externally controllable that it must be OK to use for tweaking tone, and I'm sorry but some electrical things on an amp are things that shouldn't be fucked with by someone who has no idea how an amp works electrically and can't figure out for themselves WHY it's not OK to play with those kinds of parameters to tweak tone, and things like bias, valve type switches, primary voltage, etc etc...are not things that non-techs should be playing with. Plain and simple. It's bad enough we have people around here who freely recommend to others to violate the NEC by jumping the ground prong to the neutral path on a 2 wire house with no separate ground path without knowing WHY that is not OK.

 

[MKB]

You guys still beating up 40watter?

I always thought the SOZOs were for older style circuits such as the NMV Marshalls.......but who really knows.

Twin.......do you still have/use your SOZO & Silver Mica - 2204 amp? http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/22999-best-marshall-you-heard-2010-a.html

FWIW, IMHO, the Marshall NMV tone is in: Sozo signal caps except for ceramic bright and treble tone stack caps. The ceramic is important as it sounds aggressive but not too bright. Micas are too smooth and hi-fi in those locations. Use a mica cap between the plates on the phase inverter.

I'm not too fussy about electrolytics, but they MUST be electrolytics to get the Marshall aggression. I built one with paper in oil supply caps, and that amp was a disaster. Way too smooth and polite. Who wants a polite Marshall??

The above suggestions create very subtle differences in the tone. Different tube types will as much or more of a difference.

 

[dorrisant]

I don't want to stir anything up... I did notice a change of signature... Not that my opinion really matters, but I like it. I think I will find a good Mitch Hedburg quote for mine. Can we call a truce for now?
I do have an off topic request, since I have some attention...
What mods need to be done to a plexi ri to get the evh tone I'm hearing from Rockstah? Point to point board will be installed, no question. I'm just looking for links that indicate the right changes in iron, filter caps, tone and coupling caps, etc..
Didn't mean to ruin all the fun by changing the subject... Maybe that is a good thing.
Any takers on this one? Jon... I know you probably know this stuff by heart. I want your input, if you'll give it.

Tony