The Recording Thread

[Dogs of Doom]

So recording volumes... how loud do you need to have the volume? I was recording my Mesa RA100 (mic'd to a 1960a with V30's). I pulled the mic back just a tad, found the right spot near the cone, and then pushed the volume to the get the tubes glowing, and recorded my track. Earlier, I had recorded the same track as I wanted to just capture a good version of the song end-to-end, and I did it at fairly lower volumes (just to capture the track, then delete it later after I recorded my final tracks). I noticed that there wasn't a big difference between the tracks with one recorded about 9 o'clock vs. the one where I cranked the amp to get the tubes glowing and the speakers moving. With master volume amps, and with the mic right up to the speakers, is there really a benefit of recording at louder volumes? I know with my Marshall 74' 1987 and my JCM800, I get the benefit of pushing the volume, but is there really any benefit of recording a loud master volume amp?

If the amp sounds sweet, then record it. I do think though, that sometimes you have an amp totally cranked, it sounds much different than the same, at a moderate volume that sounds sweet. But, recorded, it sounds different yet.

I like having my ISO box, because I can crank it to whatever sounds good & try different things & never have to worry about getting the noise in the environment.

I notice that the Kemper records at like -12db, or so & I'm thinking that, that's probably a good level to have your DAW set at, for recording.

I think mic placement & just having a sweet sound is more important than just blasting the amp & hoping for the best. If you have someone engineering, while you play & another guy w/ a headset positioning the mic, then you can do whatever, but, if you are doing it alone, a good set of headphones & an extension cord are important. Still though, it will be difficult to separate the cab & the headphone.

I find that 45º angles +/- seem to work well w/ recording the speaker. If close proximity, I like to have the mic at the edge of the dust cap (center dome) & then, tilt the mic 45º away from center, so you are getting the voice coil close, but off-axis & getting the paper cone, towards the outside on axis. I use large diaphragm condensors though.

Another thing would to be having the mic away from the cab at a distance 6" or more, & at a 45º angle, so it's 6" out & 6" to the side of the voice coil & aim it across the voice coil to the furthest rim of the dust cap. Same thing when mic'ing from a distance...

Using multiple mic's is a bit more technical though, because then you are working w/ phase...

 

[AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing]

In digital you don't need to record super loud (DAW levels) at all. . .I've seen some recommend as low as -20 ( to allow for headroom/overs), and of course this gives you room to get louder in the mix.

I thought I read those ISO boxes didn't work that well because you could hear the "boxiness" in the recording (i.e. you could tell it was recorded in a small space)?

Don't get me started on mic placement. You can drive yourself crazy. I've spent WEEKS in the past experimenting with moving mic around 1/8" forward, back, to the side, tweak mids up a bump, back down, then bass up a bump, etc. etc. Tiniest changes make a discernible difference when recording. There actually is a robot that can be placed in front of the amp and controlled remotely, holds the mic, and can move it around to different positions while you sit elsewhere and listen to how it sounds. I wanna say they cost somewhere in the $300-600 range.

 

[Coronado]

Great feedback, thanks guys. On mic placement, I use a TC Electronics 360 pedal and record a quick rhythm part and it runs through my speakers. I can then sit in front of either a 1x12 or 4x12 and find the best mic placement with headphones on. I found this little mic stand (they called it a desktop mic stand I believe) and it works really well for those lower speakers and 1x12's. Super easy to adjust and doesn't move at all when you finally find that spot. I sometimes battle with the telescopic mic stands where there is a bit of play and you have to account for that little bit of slack. Its kind of crazy when you think about it - you can have the greatest amp, guitar, gear, etc... ,but you could move that mic juuuuust a tad in the wrong direction and it sounds like you have a blanket over your amp. Or the other direction and its so bright and almost too thin.

Thanks guys!

 

[AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing]

the robot. the robot is the answer. everybody buy the robot.

 

[ColorfulMusic]

I disagree with your "boxiness" quote. I have recorded both in ISO box and without it. With a mic up against cone it cannot tell difference.
Other thing about mic placement is you have to experiment for sure!! It takes effort and time. Currently I am using a SM57 strait at the center of cone about 3" away. And a condenser mic 3' away. I built a large enough ISO box to be able to do this.

I HAVE put SM57 at 45 degree angle, however the 57 is already a 'warm/dark' mic IMO, so I prefer to put it straight (perpendicular to cab).

As far as gain and volume levels of Amp...you have to play around and find sweet spot like DoD said.

Input vol on recording software...again you have to find what sounds best. Generally we set input so that levels are going into red but NEVER peaking.

All that said...I am NOT an expert. I have been recording this way for about a year now. I learn things all the time. Engineers are schooled in this stuff and have many many hours of training and experience. Fortunately with todays technology, us home recorders can do a lot of great things on our own. It will only improve!

 

[Dogs of Doom]

yeah, my condenser mic's are a lot more hi-fi than an SM57.

Sennheiser Mk4___ 20 Hz - 20 kHz
Shure SM57______ 40 Hz - 15 kHz

So, the SM57 filters a bit of the fizz off inherently. The MK4 captures the full frequency spectrum, so you have to think a little more meticulously on how to get a sweeter sound, w/o capturing the brittle harshness of the throat of the voice coil.

I also find that using my ribbon mic's that I have to use even more, because they tend to capture more of the high frequency, than the low end. According to the literature, the freq. range is 40hz-18khz, but the upper freq. is prone to boosting & distorting.

according to recording hacks, it says:

1. stock Beyer ribbons have a large amount of overshoot distortion that rises with frequency,
2. they fatigue with normal sound pressure levels (due to shallow & few corrugations, and…
3. they have higher output level than with a fully corrugated ribbon, [because] the rigid ribbon moves pistonically, so generates current more uniformly & efficiently than a ribbon that moves naturally with the soundwave.

So, one plus at the expense of two whopping big negatives.

although, w/ certain analogue devices, the "distortions" are not necessarily a bad thing, like they are w/ digital &/or transistor pushed distortion. It just means that you have to be more cognizant on how you use it, & if you get distortion, how to make it sound good. If the speaker ends up sounding like an angry bumble bee, you probably need to re-evaluate your technique/theory...

I've probably posted this here before, but here goes:

Playing w/ new mics. Have my new ISO box set-up. Recording the tone of my Marshall JVM-1 w/ AVT 1x12 (greenback 25 watt) Strat w/ bridge humbucker - old strings. EV ND468 & Senheisser MK4. No effects, just panned 75% each mic.

So, there's a boxy iso cab... ...

 

[AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing]

I disagree with your "boxiness" quote. I have recorded both in ISO box and without it. With a mic up against cone it cannot tell difference.
Other thing about mic placement is you have to experiment for sure!! It takes effort and time. Currently I am using a SM57 strait at the center of cone about 3" away. And a condenser mic 3' away. I built a large enough ISO box to be able to do this.

I HAVE put SM57 at 45 degree angle, however the 57 is already a 'warm/dark' mic IMO, so I prefer to put it straight (perpendicular to cab).

As far as gain and volume levels of Amp...you have to play around and find sweet spot like DoD said.

Input vol on recording software...again you have to find what sounds best. Generally we set input so that levels are going into red but NEVER peaking.

All that said...I am NOT an expert. I have been recording this way for about a year now. I learn things all the time. Engineers are schooled in this stuff and have many many hours of training and experience. Fortunately with todays technology, us home recorders can do a lot of great things on our own. It will only improve!

I was just saying what I read. . .have not tried a box myself. The size of the one you made might make all the difference in the world (for all I know). If you're able to put a mic 3' away, that probably means it's substantially larger than most of the ones out there (which seem to be built as small as they can and still fit a mic in there).

 

[Ghostman]

I stumbled into this interface the last few weeks. Tonight I get it set up for my home studio and try it out:

REM Fireface UFX & ADI-8 QS

The ADI-8 QS won't be used, just the Fireface UFX.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Pretty sweet... That's what PU uses in his studio. ...

 

[Seventh Son]

Does anyone know what special effect was used in the intro of this song? Is it chorus or flanger?

 

[Ghostman]

I set up my RME Fireface UFX, fired it up and got the signals flowing. Sounds great and it easily integrates with my DAW. Then I tried the Reverb and Delays built in, and got massive White noise.

Did the Firmware updates, and still, no bueno. Nothing but noise. I've sent an email out to the manufacturer, so we'll see what's up. Maybe it's just a defective unit. My DAW Has all kinds of effects so it's not a complete loss if I can't get it working. Everything else is perfect.

 

[Ghostman]

Updated: Spent some time with RME tech support to get the internal FX to work. Never fixed it. Came down to a corrupt RAM chip and would require me to send the unit in. However, the only thing non-functional is the built in Reverb and Delay, which I will never use.

I picked up a used MX300 effects processor this week, and had to rewire my setup. I had to add back into the fold the ADI-8 that I picked up with the Fireface UFX. After building some cables I did a dry run with the connections and routing last night:

Worked perfectly. I'm able to route the MX300 into the ADI-8 and run my signals through the ADAT connection, giving me another 8 channels of in/out to mess with. Then I swapped over the iPod connection into the ADI-8 which frees up two more mic/line level inputs of the Fireface.

 

[ColorfulMusic]

I was just saying what I read. . .have not tried a box myself. The size of the one you made might make all the difference in the world (for all I know). If you're able to put a mic 3' away, that probably means it's substantially larger than most of the ones out there (which seem to be built as small as they can and still fit a mic in there).

To expand...if your mic is inches from speaker, IMO it shouldn't matter weather cab is in large room, small room or in a box. Mic would pick up the same sound that close to cone. Mic doesn't know where cab is.
On the other hand a mic that is footage away will make a difference in a room that is not 'dead' because you will pick up what ever is bouncing off the walls. I have done it that way but by hanging elevator blankets in garage and I think sounds the same as it does when in my ISO. Just my experience. I not an expert.
I think mic placement and mic type make a bigger difference.

 

[el_bastardo]

To expand...if your mic is inches from speaker, IMO it shouldn't matter weather cab is in large room, small room or in a box. Mic would pick up the same sound that close to cone. Mic doesn't know where cab is.
On the other hand a mic that is footage away will make a difference in a room that is not 'dead' because you will pick up what ever is bouncing off the walls. I have done it that way but by hanging elevator blankets in garage and I think sounds the same as it does when in my ISO. Just my experience. I not an expert.
I think mic placement and mic type make a bigger difference.

It all makes a difference. An iso box that doesn't let the speaker "breathe' properly (porting/vents) will sound dark and boxy pretty much no matter where you put the mic. Isoboxes take some thought...or luck. Close miking removes the room, and that's about it. The speaker enclosure, bet it a regular cab or isobox, matters.

 

[AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing]

what about a closet? I have a long closet with sliding doors that Ive recorded a dsl40c in, with the amp pointing along the long axis of the closet (i.e. several feet in front of/behind amp, next to none on the sides...maybe 6 inches on each side. had moving blankets hanging behind amp. had amp up pretty loud (red channel, volume at 7 or 8). Still didnt think it sound that different than at 2 or 3. Didnt necessarily find it "boxy" though.

 

[bulldozer1984]

A closet is actually a very common thing to do. Just make you sure you acoustically treat the boundary.

 

[AAHIHaveNoIdeaWhatImDoing]

how much? there were clothes hanging and i had a sound blanket behind amp

 

[ColorfulMusic]

how much? there were clothes hanging and i had a sound blanket behind amp

If it sounds good mess with it. What people say here isn't law!

 

[Australian]

If it sounds good mess with it. What people say here isn't law!

Thats right. And remember that those classic albums, they sometimes would take some days to experiment with the mics.
You have to know your own room. where to face the amp, how far the mic has to be. I personally don't like close mixing on the guitar cab. But that might just be my room that gives me the sound I want.

The moral of the story is: don't be lazy. Experiment, and note what works.

 

[bulldozer1984]

If it sounds good mess with it. What people say here isn't law!

It most certainly is law !