Zimmerman Charged in Trayvon Case !!!

[SmokeyDopey]

A weapon is a tool that is useful in doing such, just as it is useful in recreational sports. We also forget the other side of your sentence... they are useful in stopping those living beings who have made the decison to harm other living beings themselves.

I think the human brain is far more powerful than lead and gun powder. But I guess it's easier to "pull the trigger" and be done with it.

 

[V-man]

Lol. Please dude, get real. Get over yourself. There is no win or lose. I don't want to discuss these things with you because you are an irrational and angry gun nut. You can't change my mind, and I can't change yours, so what's the point? The simple fact that you actually want to internet fight over this just makes my point for me. Fine, you win the important internet debate! Congrats. Go shoot someone in celebration.

I will take it. For every such thread, there are polarized guys like you and me. We are the lost causes for the other side. My "job" isn't to convince you of anything. It is simply to point out to those who don't have a dog in this fight how stupid your argument is. They can either run with it, or leave it aside.

Also credit goes for you abstaining from the "cool story, bro"/other insincere deflection you generally resort to when cornered.

 

[Will55555]

This is entertaining, sorry I mean interesting!

We have no guns here, not even the police, well some gangsters and special branch cops have but other than that none at all bar a few farmers with shotguns or a rifle.

I'm glad, that I don't need a gun, there are hardly any guns around here but if every second person had one I would surely want one for protection. And whats wrong with that!

 

[Grunch]

I don't like guns and generally don't like gun people, but I accept the fact that we're far too deep in the hole to get away from them. The scum has them, and they're better equipped than police officers. It's just pitifully sad and stupid that in 2012 crime is so bad that people have to carry a gun to the store just to feel safe.

 

[Grunch]

I will take it. For every such thread, there are polarized guys like you and me. We are the lost causes for the other side. My "job" isn't to convince you of anything. It is simply to point out to those who don't have a dog in this fight how stupid your argument is. They can either run with it, or leave it aside.

Also credit goes for you abstaining from the "cool story, bro"/other insincere deflection you generally resort to when cornered.

I haven't been corrected, and my argument isn't stupid. You can hide behind the American flag all you want, but it's pretty transparent. You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not trying to take your guns away, I just think it's really sad that you feel that you need one.

 

[V-man]

V-Man... It's all about personal responsibility. A firearm isn't a tool, it's a weapon. I don't give a shit if people want to shoot and are responsible. Or if they want weapons for self/home-defense.

A weapon is always tool. A tool can be used as weapon, but it does not need to be. Usually a deadly weapon is a defined as an instrumentality (tool) capable of causing great bodily harm. A firearm (with or without ammunition) certainly falls within this category. But that does not damn a firearm from the toolshed.

Our own Ted Nugent said "if guns are meant to kill people, then all mine are defective". There are plenty of firearms that are outright terrible choices for use against people (and designed for a completely different task). There are also very capable ones that are simply not used as such. A jeep and hummer are both examples of a military assault vehicle DESIGNED for troop transport and urban assault. It is a tool, and it's original use does not overshadow the uses that the public have innovated for them.

 

[V-man]

I haven't been corrected, and my argument isn't stupid. You can hide behind the American flag all you want, but it's pretty transparent. You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not trying to take your guns away, I just think it's really sad that you feel that you need one.

I think it's sad that I have USED one against someone who has tried to kill me. Oh well. I would rather live in a fantasy world where mankind doesn't do shit like that. I'll take a world where I can ably defend myself against those people in the mean time.

 

[Grunch]

Whoa, wait, you're quoting Ted Nugent now?

 

[Grunch]

I think it's sad that I have USED one against someone who has tried to kill me. Oh well. I would rather live in a fantasy world where mankind doesn't do shit like that. I'll take a world where I can ably defend myself against those people in the mean time.

We live in the same world bud.

 

[SmokeyDopey]

I think a gun is a weapon. It is a tool in the battlefield. But why should there be a battlefield? Differences? So we settle differences caveman style.

A tool can be used as a weapon, like say a hammer. But a gun is a gun - a weapon.

 

[V-man]

We live in the same world bud.

I wasn't implying otherwise. My meaning was straightforward. A world without weapons is a world without, intelligent predators in general and a world without the ill will of man in specific. Crime and violence agaist mankind is simply a pure instinct of survival that has become badly corrupted and/or misdirected. It would be great to live in a fantasy world where mankind was a cooperative species instead of an adversarial one. But that is an impossibility that would unravel the essence of what it is to be human (why I don't take racism/religion/belief arguments terribly seriously).

In the meantime, I prefer in this world of inevitable misfortune to live among those who recognize the necessity (evil and otherwise) of firearms rather than those who delude themselves about them.

 

[V-man]

I think a gun is a weapon. It is a tool in the battlefield. But why should there be a battlefield? Differences? So we settle differences caveman style.

A tool can be used as a weapon, like say a hammer. But a gun is a gun - a weapon.

What about a hammerli air pistol, for example? It is a tool built for recreation (competitive marksmanship). Like any gun, it is capable of harming another individual, even killing another, but it was specifically designed for the sport of shooting, and not at all for offensive/defensive use. In fact, it is a terrible "tool" for such a trade, and in many if not most situations would be a fatal choice if someone picked up a baseball bat against the bearer of this air pistol. Is that a "weapon" to you?

 

[Grunch]

It would be great to live in a fantasy world where mankind was a cooperative species instead of an adversarial one. But that is an impossibility that would unravel the essence of what it is to be human (why I don't take racism/religion/belief arguments terribly seriously).
.

Those socities exist and flourish in Europe. Why can't it work here?

 

[V-man]

Those socities exist and flourish in Europe. Why can't it work here?

They do, do they?

Would you care to point out a few of these "enlightened societies" in Europe and perhaps add a comment or two about how/why you believe these places are such examples?

 

[SmokeyDopey]

What about a hammerli air pistol, for example? It is a tool built for recreation (competitive marksmanship). Like any gun, it is capable of harming another individual, even killing another, but it was specifically designed for the sport of shooting, and not at all for offensive/defensive use. In fact, it is a terrible "tool" for such a trade, and in many if not most situations would be a fatal choice if someone picked up a baseball bat against the bearer of this air pistol. Is that a "weapon" to you?

OK, shooting was made into a sport. But like previously mentioned, we're just debating definition here.

 

[Grunch]

They do, do they?

Would you care to point out a few of these "enlightened societies" in Europe and perhaps add a comment or two about how/why you believe these places are such examples?

Norway, Finland, Sweden, Germany, The Netherlands.....just look at the link I provided earlier. Very few advanced Euro countries are on that list of countries with high incidents of firearm murders. We're number 4.

I know one reason these countries don't have the violent crime that we do. Saying it publicly will probably get me banned.


Now tell me why we can't do the same?

 

[V-man]

OK, shooting was made into a sport. But like previously mentioned, we're just debating definition here.

That is a potential pitfall, but at the edge of that morass lies a shore of stupidity inhabited by some people. These people sternly believe that a "gun" is the equivalent of a venomous snake imbued with a nefarious intelligence of sorts, as if holding one was like possessing a cobra on one's hand.

A katana was a sword built for military service. It is a thing of art, death, and poetry. Its original purpose was for nobles to defend their daimyo, and was the killing machine of yesteryear. Today we have such swords built for ceremonial, artistic, and martial artistic purposes. There is kendo and iaido, to mention two forms of art inspired around this sword. Far fewer people abhor this tool (which was originally measured in how many human torsos it could rip through as an indication of build quality), simply because it is now archaic.

Is it less deadly, less evil? Should it be more evil, considering? Weapons are machines. They are thoughtless and neutral. The real "evil" lies within the man who employs it (if any such evil exists in the first place). Thus the narrowing the definition of tool comes down to either a minor issue of semantics, or a bigger issue of "evil symbol" versus accountability and personal responsibility.

 

[SmokeyDopey]

That is a potential pitfall, but at the edge of that morass lies a shore of stupidity inhabited by some people. These people sternly believe that a "gun" is the equivalent of a venomous snake imbued with a nefarious intelligence of sorts, as if holding one was like possessing a cobra on one's hand.

A katana was a sword built for military service. It is a thing of art, death, and poetry. Its original purpose was for nobles to defend their daimyo, and was the killing machine of yesteryear. Today we have such swords built for ceremonial, artistic, and martial artistic purposes. There is kendo and iaido, to mention two forms of art inspired around this sword. Far fewer people abhor this tool (which was originally measured in how many human torsos it could rip through as an indication of build quality), simply because it is now archaic.

Is it less deadly, less evil? Should it be more evil, considering? Weapons are machines. They are thoughtless and neutral. The real "evil" lies within the man who employs it (if any such evil exists in the first place). Thus the narrowing the definition of tool comes down to either a minor issue of semantics, or a bigger issue of "evil symbol" versus accountability and personal responsibility.

I understand. That's why I mentioned we we entering a definition debate (derail I guess? Kinda?)
A hammer can be used as a weapon, but it wans't intended to be a weapon. Maybe it evolved from a weapon But I don't know.

 

[V-man]

Norway, Finland, Sweden, Germany, The Netherlands.....just look at the link I provided earlier. Very few advanced Euro countries are on that list of countries with high incidents of firearm murders. We're number 4.

I know one reason these countries don't have the violent crime that we do. Saying it publicly will probably get me banned.


Now tell me why we can't do the same?

Then allow me to do it. These countries have a more "homogenous" population. Let the reader inject his own good/evil/otherwise into the breach. It is all-encompassing and not as "flameworthy" as one would first think. A society with a more galvanized belief system (less religious diversity), more uniform demographic (be it ethnicity, race, culture, etc), and more uniform class system means more inherent stability.

Thus "the gun violence issue" much as the "antis" would love to rally 'round the soapbox and blame guns, has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with disparity and human nature. Undoing this in America is undoing America itself. America is a melting pot. the pros are diverse ideas throught different cultures and systems of thought/belief. Melting pots are also powder kegs when the alloy becomes comprised with elements that have contrary properties to the others. This is one of the ills of the freedom experiment.

It spans demographic, social, political, economic, and religous ground, just to name a few. So after a little "double think and demographic cleansing (not meant as a tasteless jab into history), we can become... another place with other problems. Given the costs for conversion, it hardly seems worth the thought.

 

[Grunch]

Then allow me to do it. These countries have a more "homogenous" population. Let the reader inject his own good/evil/otherwise into the breach. It is all-encompassing and not as "flameworthy" as one would first think. A society with a more galvanized belief system (less religious diversity), more uniform demographic (be it ethnicity, race, culture, etc), and more uniform class system means more inherent stability.

Thus "the gun violence issue" much as the "antis" would love to rally 'round the soapbox and blame guns, has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with disparity and human nature. Undoing this in America is undoing America itself. America is a melting pot. the pros are diverse ideas throught different cultures and systems of thought/belief. Melting pots are also powder kegs when the alloy becomes comprised with elements that have contrary properties to the others. This is one of the ills of the freedom experiment.

It spans demographic, social, political, economic, and religous ground, just to name a few. So after a little "double think and demographic cleansing (not meant as a tasteless jab into history), we can become... another place with other problems. Given the costs for conversion, it hardly seems worth the thought.

I agree 100%. I'm glad you said that as they are my thoughts exactly. We'd need to undo America. At least culturally. Being a melting pot has become our own undoing.

But then if it's not about the guns, then it's about the idiots that resort to guns. What do criminals in advanced societies resort to? Name calling? They sure don't go around killing eachother, so guns have to be part of the problem.